[littlemanpoet]

Yes, Daniel, thanks for the correction on that point. I sort of hunched that I was not getting it quite right on the cause of death.

The Frodo-weakest or strongest thread kind of strayed into a discussion of Faramir versus Boromir, so I'm quoting those posts here:

littlemanpoet:
A very well written and moving account of Sam's growth, Child.
I've just been rereading Frodo's interrogation by Faramir in Ithilien. In the context of Frodo's plight as quoted in my last post on this thread, the self-control exhibited by his careful words and circumspection reveal his depth of character. Funny, I had not noticed it in qutie that light before. Faramir's words capture a part of it:

"...there is something strange about you, Frodo, an elvish air, maybe."

I have to smile at Tolkien's own circumspection in using Faramir, a true descendant of Numenor, to perceive this elvish element in Frodo, and then "coda" it with "maybe".
Having read this section over again for the first time in a few years, my appreciation for Faramir has again risen right up there with Gandalf and Aragorn. Suddenly he is my favorite character after Frodo and Sam - again. And his devotion to Boromir makes me want to read all over again Boromir's dying words, acknowledging Aragorn as "my king". Powerful stuff.

stone of vision:
Aaya Littlemanpoet,
Sorry if I misread or misunderstood

"And his devotion to Boromir makes me want to read all over again Boromir's dying words, acknowledging Aragorn as "my king". Powerful stuff."

Isn't that the line Boromir embodied by Sean Bean said in the movie?

As I told in an other thread:
In the movie, Sean Bean’s acting at the last moments of Boromir touched me very much,) his respectful aknowledgement and acceptation, his “love” for Aragorn as the man he is, as his king, leads him to the peace of mind and the satisfaction he may desire. Boromir left the middle earth his spirit and his soul free and intact in the vision of P jackson. (sob !)

On the contrary in the book, Boromir keeps his pride and his unsatifaction till the end. . He didn’t challenge openly Aragorn’rights but never recognized personally it.
His last words said he was sorry. Who was he sorry for the hobbits? For frodo? For himself? For failing? Not for forgiveness. Then he stated with coldness “I have paid” implying he own defeat, his own belated error, accepting what he thinks he deserved.

I admit because of the movie influence, Sean Bean's acting/ PJ 's pov- I also get confused about my own beliefs in the book where Broromir's portrayal is less pleasant.

And yes I quite liked the way Sean Bean/PJ portrayed Boromir

littlemanpoet:
Oops. I wondered about that as I wrote my last post on this thread. Sure enough, it was in the movie and not the book. I shall now commit heresy against the subcreator himself and suggest that PJ and the movie and Sean Bean surpassed Tolkien's rendition of the scene. Not that I necessarily believe it, just felt like throwing it out there. However, I do read the scene a little differently than you, Stone of Vision, my friend. I see Boromir's recognition of Aragorn's rights in: 'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed.' In saying this, Boromir acknowledges Aragorn's right to be the savior of his people. And Aragorn denies Boromir's defeat by saying 'few have gained such a victory'. The victory is having died well. Very Nordic.
I wish Sean Bean got better movie roles than he does. I've seen him in much, but never in a better role than LotR-FotR.

stone of vision:
Dear littlemanpoet,
I would be honnored if could have a look at my post about one of the possible Boromir's portraying in the thread"the original breaking of the fellowship" where I had extracted some parts in my fore message. ( the third one)
Here's the link:
the original breaking of the fellowship
I would like you to give your opinion about it. Please

What is disturbing me in "'Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed" is the fact that Boromir used the possessive pronoun ** my** people. couldn't he have said rather : " the people of Minas Thirith"

Certainly another geekyness of my part

Child of the 7th Age
Littlmanpoet and Stone of Vision -- Guess what? Faramir is also my "third favorite" character after Frodo and Sam. And that is saying a lot, since I tend to be partial to elves, hobbits, and other non-human characters.
What fascinates me about Faramir, among other things, is how closely Tolkien identified with him. And I feel that identification affected not only Faramir, but also the role of his brother Boromir in the story. In one of his Letters, Tolkien denies he is like Gandalf in response to a query and instead asserts that the character he is most like is Faramir (though the author claims not to have the latter's courage.)

Tolkien had a recurring dream in life where a huge wave overcomes an island, obviously a reference to Numenor/Atlantis. His son Michael had this very same recurring dream about the Great Wave, even though he had no knowledge of the dream by his father. (A little strange, no?) Anyways, it is this dream which he gives to Faramir in the story. It is also Faramir, the only character in the book, who stands up with his men before a meal and faces West. As he explains to Frodo, this is to face towards Elvenhome and Valinor and remember the great ones who live there. The way this is phrased, and I don't have the book beside me this minute, it is, in effect, a prayer. Frodo hangs his head and says he "feels rustic" and inadequate after hearing this explanation of what is obviously a very spiritual thing since his own culture had nothing like this. How interesting that Faramir, whom Tolkien identified with, should be the only character to have this overt religious expression! Also like Tolkien, both Faramir and his bride Eowyn were motherless.

Tolkien was an enormously private person and for him to admit his identification with Faramir in writing is, I believe, quite revealing. I think Faramir walked right out of Tolkien's subconscious. Again, in the Letters, Tolkien says: "A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking out of the woods of Ithilien) Faramir, the brother of Boromir...." So if Faramir says he can see an elvish look about Frodo, you can bet your boots that the author is saying he sees it too!

Given Tolkin's identification with the character, Faramir's limitations also intrigue me, especially his suspicions of Gollum and how his archers almost make an end to him. In this instance, as contrasted with the prayers before dining scene, it is Frodo who comes over as the more sensitive and compassionate.

Now, in the Letters, while Tolkien goes on and on at length in several places about Faramir--he barely mentions his brother Boromir. At one point, Tolkien gives a spirited defense of Faramir's relationship with Eowyn. There are a scant 4 references to Boromir in the entire letters. So I think there is something personal going on here. Tolkien truly liked Faramir and identified with him and, by contrast, I believe, he truly disliked his counter-ego Boromir. I think that duality strongly affects how these two characters come over in the book. Iwould say it is one of the things that makes Boromir's "repentence" less convincing.

I agree that PJ's Boromir is a lot "nicer" than JRRT's, but I think that has a lot to do with how Tolkien viewed Faramir whom he sympathetically described in the Letters as having "a bossy brother" and a "stern proud father." And I'm afraid I have a feeling closer to JRRT than PJ on this one, though it made for a great scene in the movie! sharon the 7th age hobbit

littlemanpoet:
Stone of Vision, I'll look up that thread as soon as I've post this reply to Child regarding Faramir.
Child, the connection between JRRT and Faramir is convincing. I accept it. Regarding, however, Faramir's lesser compassion for Gollum as compared to Frodo, I would not go too far with the subconscious iconography (I may be using that word wrong, it just tripped out). Tolkien's revision was a very conscious process, as he tells us himself, and Faramir's Gondorian-ness and duties as a lieutenant with orders to follow require that he be strict regarding Gollum's illegal entry into the Caves. That he actually relents and lets Gollum go reveals his depth of compassion and perhaps foresight, as well as, perhaps, the connection again to JRRT subconsciously.

Child of the 7th Age
Re Faramir:

"That he actually relents and lets Gollum go reveal his depth of compassion and perhaps foresight, as well as , perhaps, he connection again to JRRT subconsciously."

Good point, Littlemanpoet. Unlike the situation with Sam, you never sense a personal animosity. The one thing Faramir did not have, could not have, was the sense of connection with Gollum, the identification with the suffering of Gollum, which was fostered by the wearing of the Ring itself.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

Hope that adds of a little interest.

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

[ May 21, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]