[Mister Underhill]

Dread Horseman
Posts: 673
Re: uhh....

Since it's so slow, thought I'd address a few of these other arguments.

In these two passages the term "wings" is used as a simile and also as a metaphor. It would make no sense for Tolkien to use the term as a simile and and actual physical describtion because that would simply undo his previous work.

I’ve cited one precedent from the same book where JRRT uses the exact same structure – first the simile, then the full reveal. I don’t think we can concede your assumption here that “wings” is used metaphorically.

Also such things as troll escorts mentioned in the silm would not be needed if inded balrogs could fly.

The “troll guard” reference is very suspect and hardly authoritative. For an in-depth look at this reference (albeit in a different context) from the published Silmarillion, check this link. Suffice to say that the passage you’re quoting from was constructed by Christopher Tolkien from multiple sources. None of the source material published in HoME contains the troll reference, and in fact it is the only reference to trolls that exists at all in the published Sil. This argument is not convincing.

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There is a penciled note on the manuscript against the describtion of the Balrog: 'alter the describtion of the Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its for could not be plainly decerned it FELT larger than it looked.' After the words 'Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure' my father added: 'and a great shadow seemed to black out the light...'
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What this quote proves is that tolkien wanted the Balrong to seem larger than it was and so
to do this he employed just a shadow in the first drafts.

quote:

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Fellowship of the RIng] it is said only that the
Balrog 'stood facing him' : in C'the Balrog halted facing him, and the shadow about him reached out like giant wings'. Immediately afterward in FR the Balrog "drew itself up to a great height , and its wings spread from wall to wall', neither B nor C has the words 'to a great height' nor speak of 'wings'.
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what this quote prove it that wings were just the culmmonation of tolkien endevoring to make the Balrog seem larger and more commanding, it shows that tolkien did not want the balrog to be seen as a Winged beast but as a man-shape with a towering presence due to the imense shadow which seemed to accompany it. Tyhe fact that the shadow was present in the revious drafts but actual wings weren't until the very final supports the idea that tolkien had no intention of giving tha balrog wings and that when he did use the term 'wings" he used it as a simile and a metaphor.

Again, I think unwarranted assumptions are being made here. It is reckless to attempt to divine JRRT’s final intentions by looking at these early and very different drafts. Case in point: Aragorn, in the versions you cite, is still named “Trotter”, who was earlier conceived as a mysterious hobbit, or, alternatively, as an elf in disguise. Obviously, these conceptions changed drastically as the story matured. The fact that the “wings” reference was added last may in fact provide a stronger argument in favor of a winged Balrog as the final conception.

They claim that "arose" means the Balrogs have wings, but it clearly states that they were lurking.

Passages using parallel construction in reference to winged beasts have been cited.

Also, for "winged speed", I don't remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know has wings.

I feel like Big Brother is trying to convince me that “War is peace.” You’re trying to tell me that the use of the word “winged” means that the Balrogs don’t have wings? Okay. I don’t remember Tolkien writing something along these lines for anything that we know doesn’t have wings, either. So there we are.

Quick comment for my favorite Barrow Wight. Don't stop now, I'm behind you.

...Oh wait. There's no argument here. Just some brown-nosing!

Just playing with you, D! Long time no see. Good to see you haunting the Downs once again.

Edited by: Mister Underhill at: 6/20/01 3:51:26 pm