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Pile o' Bones
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: umm
Mr. Underhill, I am sorry I have not been able to respond lately but here is my response to your numerous and unchallenged posts:
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Quote:<hr> Another case where the simile "like" is used before the (winged) creature is fully revealed.<hr></blockquote>
All you proved is that tolkien used similes in other areas. This hardly proves that tolkien had a pattern of using the same word for both a simile and a physical attribute.
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Quote:<hr> I’ve cited one precedent from the same book where JRRT uses the exact same structure – first
the simile, then the full reveal. I don’t think we can concede your assumption here that “wings” is nused metaphorically. <hr></blockquote>
No if you actually look at the different texts the structure is completely different the only similarity being in both a simile was utilized. The "shadow" in this case was independant of the object because of the time differencial and the nature of such a shadow as opposed to that of the Balrog shadow, if indeed the eagle is the object, but in "the Bridge..." they are not independant at all, the shadow is a part of the Balrog( sure if the balrog was casting a shadow hen what you said would apply but that is not how it works), it is completely different and is a complete stretch.
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Quote:<hr> Again, I think unwarranted assumptions are being made here. It is reckless to attempt to divine JRRT’s final intentions by looking at these early and very different drafts. Case in point: Aragorn, in the versions you cite, is still named “Trotter”, who was earlier conceived as a mysterious hobbit, or, alternatively, as an elf in disguise. Obviously, these conceptions changed drastically as the story matured. The fact that the “wings” reference was added last may in fact provide a stronger argument in favor of a winged Balrog as the final conception.<hr></blockquote>
Are you saying looking at the previous drafts casts no light on the intensions of the author? The generalities and basic conepts remain true through out the drafts despite the variations on nomenclature and various details. THe fact is there is no hint as to such ariel appendages being present on the Balrog in any of the drafts but tolkien says himslef that he wished to make the Balrog seem larger then it actually was, his intensions in this respect are quite clear and unambiguous.
1. Tolkien wanted the Balrog to seem greater then it actually was (this is established to the end by his son)
2. The "shadow" is present in all of the later drafts as a means to accomplish this
3. If the Barog had literal wings then why would tolkien want to make it seem greater then it actually was? He would have no need to. He wanted it to SEEM larger then it actually was what would be the point if it already filled the room with its massive wings?
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In regard to what exactly arose meant that can not be determined since at different times it has meant different things. Tolkien set no rules as to what specific terms such as "arose" which are used in an infinite variety of contexts could be used. Sure He has used the term for creature with wings but has also has not:
Lord of the Rings, Book V Chapter 2:
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Quote:<hr> but her eyes were ever upon Aragorn, and the others saw that she was in great torment of mind. At length they arose, and took their leave of the Lady, and thanked her for her care, and went to their rest. <hr></blockquote>
Lord of the Rings, Book V Chapter 8:
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Quote:<hr> And Aragorn arose and went out, and he sent for the sons of Elrond, and together they laboured far into the night<hr></blockquote>
Lord of the Rings. Book V Chapter 9:
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Quote:<hr> But soon Aragorn arose, saying: "Lo! already Minas Tirith is assailed"<hr></blockquote>
Lord fo the Rings, Book VI Chapter 4:
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Quote:<hr> And then Aragorn stood up, and all the host arose, and they passed to pavilions made ready, to eat and drink and make merry while the day lasted. <hr></blockquote>
Silmarillion Akallabeth:
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Quote:<hr> yet his spirit arose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor <hr></blockquote>
and there is alot more...
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As for "winged speed" by definition in this context the term winged means "move with wings or as if with wings" (no I did not make thatt up if you don't believe me you can look it up yourself). This being so the passage is hardely conclusive since saying they moved as if with wings is not with out presedent in the Silmarillion where in at least to passages they are described as being extremely fast, here is one:
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Quote:<hr> Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...<hr></blockquote>
If "winged" were used in such a context as:
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Quote:<hr> ...pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons, that had not before been seen; and so sudden and ruinous was the onset of that dreadful fleet that the host of the...<hr></blockquote>
in which the term is used directly to modify the noun then your argument would work but that is not the case.
Also Tolkien has used in a number of passages the term "winged" to denote flying/fleeing/passing away which corresponds to my argument. One such case:
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Quote:<hr> ...him ere it fled, almost gay it seemed to be casting off at last all doubt and care and fear. And then even as it winged away into forgetfulness it heard voices, and they seemed to be crying in some forgotten world far above: The Eagles are coming! The Eagles are Coming!...<hr></blockquote>
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Quote:<hr> He uses "pass over" in relation to landbound travel only to denote a crossing of some sort--e.g., passed over a river, passed over an ocean, passed over the mountains, etc.
However, he does notably use "pass [-ed, -ing] over" to indicate the passage of flying creatures
through a region:<hr></blockquote>
Then how do you ex-plain the following quotes?
Lord of the Rings,Book III Chapter 2:
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Quote:<hr> At dusk they halted again. Now twice twelve leagues they had passed over the plains of Rohan and the wall of the Emyn Muil was lost in the shadows of the East. The young moon was glimmering...<hr></blockquote>
Lord of the Rings. Bok III Chapter 4:
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Quote:<hr> We crossed over Anduin and came to their land: but we found a desert: it was all burned and uprooted, for war had passed over it. But the Entwives were not there. Long we called, and long we searched; and we asked all folk that we met which way<hr></blockquote>
Lord ofthe Rings, Book V Chapter 9:
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Quote:<hr> He is watching. He sees much and hears much. His Nazgul are still abroad. They passed over this field ere the sunrise, though few of the weary and sleeping were aware of them. He studies the signs: the Sword that robbed...<hr></blockquote>
Lord of the Rings, Book VI Chapter 4:
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Quote:<hr> And they passed over Udrn and Gorgoroth and saw all the land in ruin and tumult beneath them, and before them Mount Doom blazing, pouring out its fire.<hr></blockquote>
Unfinished Tales, 1st Age:
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Quote:<hr> They walked warily when they left the woods, but all the land was empty and quiet. They passed over the tumbled stones...<hr></blockquote>
Unfinished Tales, the !st Age:
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Quote:<hr> ...would pass to and fro between Thingol and his kin in Nargothrond. 22 Now they waited until the starlit night was late, and they passed over in the white mists before the dawn. <hr></blockquote>
Unfinishef Tales, The 3rd Age:
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Quote:<hr> ...stern men of Arnor and war-hardened. Of their journey nothing is told until they had passed over the Dagorlad...<hr></blockquote>
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Quote:<hr> From neither is the course of the battle perhaps perfectly clear, but it seems certain that the Riders having passed over the Undeeps...<hr></blockquote>
Even if what you said was correct (and its not) Hithlim is quite mountainous.
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Quote:<hr> The most significant find in my research of this go-round (to my mind, anyway) is the parallel use of the "like...wings" in the case of the eagle in FotR. If we view this use of the simile followed by the reveal as a curiosity of Tolkien's style, repeated again with the Balrog, then the basis for reading all the other evidence metaphorically is (I think) considerably weakened. <hr></blockquote>
There is no patternsince those two passages are completely different. THe fact is Wing is used as a simile and in the same context used again in the context of a metaphor. To have a simile back up a metaphor is common practice especially when a word can not be found to form another simile for comparison. To have a word used as a simile and a literal statement ( and it is easy to misconstrue a metaphor as that due to the way in which they are inserted grammictcally) makes no sense because it confused the issue and undos the former. It simply doesn't work.
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Something else which doesn't make sense is if Balrogs could fly then why would the often give up their advantage and come down to the ground?
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<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim...<hr></blockquote>
if indeed Balrogs could fly then saying it "ran down swifter" would be an improper comparison since you would be utilizing two dissemiler acts.
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Quote:<hr> In the front of that fire came Glaurung the golden, father of dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs, and behind them came the black armies of the Orcs in multitudes such as the Noldor had never before seen or imagined<hr></blockquote>
Where the Balrogs flying between the orcs and dragon? No, they couldn't fly, again why would they give up such a great tacticle advantage if not for combat then atl least for reconnosince.
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more to come...
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