[HerenIstarion]

Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 306

Ok, here is lot of stuff that requires some commentary

Let the game begin:

1. Visions seen by Sam

First of all, they could not have been created by Gandalf, nor represent Gandalf. As an evidence may be used episode at Rauros - Gandalf's ability's maximum was a voice than, not a vision.

As for hte forms they took

Originally Posted by Mr. Underhill

he couldn't even bring himself to toss it into the puny fire in his hearth in Bag End.

Originally Posted by Saulotus

Sam's 'Other Vision' only shows a Tall Stern Lord in place of Frodo

Is not it obvious that Frodo changed while on his way to Mordor? Hobbit not daring to throw ring into the hearth and one unable to toss it into the Cracks of Doom are different persons. Even Sharku afterwords noticed that, saying something like you became wise, halfling, and cruel! Instead of cruel one may well place strong willed for it is said by an enemy, and not as a compliment.

Originally Posted by Mr.Underhill

Why the lord who hid his brightness in grey cloud the first time and the figure robed in white the next?

Among colours of the vision, the grey one appears before hobbits cross Mordor's frontiere, another one (white and the wheel of fire) after. If the ring changed, became heavier and mightier, why should visions caused by it stay the same? And, despite all, on the backround of the apparently dark land hobbit of the good will seemed radiant, of course, even if he himself looked grey in the place not so corrupted (both, corruption and coulors of the visions are meant in spiritual way - Ithilien, if corrupted by orcs phisycally, was still free of Sauron's will)

So, shortly speaking, visions were made up by the ring, but stuff used to build them up was Frodo himself, for inside he really became Tall Stern Lord despite that his body remained that of a halfling.

2. Sam as a vision

General conclusion is the same as above, only that here Sam the Magnificent was not a person really in existance, but a might-have-been, probabale future used to tempt Sam, not expressing his inner reality

3. Oh those nihilist wizards

Originally Posted by Mr. Underhill

Gandalf knew even before the quest began that Frodo never really had any hope of throwing the Ring into the fire. How then are we to explain him going along with the scheme of sending it to Mordor? Did he trust to mere blind luck? Did he simply have faith that Good would triumph over Evil? Or did he have a little extra insurance that he planned to use to help make things come out right?

The answer was givenon the thread, but passed unnoticed:

'It is no laughing matter,' said Gandalf. 'Not for you. It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo's arrival just at that time, and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark.
'There was more than power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to it's master. It had slupped from Isildur's hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Deagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when it's master was wide awake once more and sending out his dark though from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo Baggins from the Shire!'

Following that, Gandalf adds that therefore, both, Bilbo and Frodo were meant to be ring-bearers. Meant by whom? Not the Valar, (for, if they knew the location of the ring, why not to inform their emissaries (i.e. among others Ganalf, to go and pick it up in due time. why bother themselves arranging such a cat's cradle, involving a wizard, 13 dwarves and a most unlikely person as a halfling may be?) evidently, but Eru himself. Therefore, Gandalf, as well as Frodo (as was stated by Mithadan, if I am not mistaken) was relying on faith rather than on his wisdom or courage, and that is, in a way. also answer why only he among all the Istari is named by JRRT as one who failed not.

as if some other will was using his small voice. I will take the Ring, he said, though I do not know the way

Here's another textual evidence (it was already stated that JRRT carefully chose his words)

(c.f. Tuor used as a michrophone by Ulmo)

4. Who spoke

At least turning to the titular topic.

It was Frodo who spoke, and all the arguments (i e never talking before and so on) are admitted. Only a bit of comment here too:

Frodo was using a ring as well as Ring was using him. There is more than one direction in the matter. Any thing affected affects in return. As well as the Ring left it's mark on every of it's bearers, all of those left their marks on the ring. Frodo (on that occasion) used it's power to restrain Gollum, which is another part of his becoming stern tall lord - one able to control the ring in a measure, not only dissapear when uninvited visitors (money-borrowers) knocked at the front door

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them.