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doug*platypus · 02-09-2003, 05:55 AM

Forgive my feeble chronological powers, but did the Nazgûl actually exist when Sauron went to Númenor? I believe that the Nine had been given out before the One was forged (or they might not have seemed quite as attractive), but had enough time elapsed for their bearers to become the wraiths that we know and love?

If the Nazgûl were not around in their Third Age form, the One would not have had a very suitable guardian. Presumably a guardian would be needed to keep any wannabe Lords of the Rings away from Sauron's preciouss. And if the Ringwraiths were present at that point, I am very impressed by Ar-Pharazôn's ability to defeat Sauron's forces (unless of course there was no battle necessary). I think that to defeat the Nazgûl without the help of any High Elves would have been quite an accomplishment.

One of my reasons for believing Sauron took the One with him to Númenor is his desire for the Ring. It completes him (thanks, Jerry). I think that he was at least as vulnerable as others to the lure of the Ring. True he was Its master, and probably able to control most of its power, but I think he also would have been bound to Its rules. Tolkien's point was that by externalising power, you lose a degree of control over It (his analogy was of a dictator using armies to become powerful, which could not always be relied on completely), and so in a way you become subordinate to It.

02-09-2003, 05:55 AM	#28
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Forgive my feeble chronological powers, but did the Nazgûl actually exist when Sauron went to Númenor? I believe that the Nine had been given out before the One was forged (or they might not have seemed quite as attractive), but had enough time elapsed for their bearers to become the wraiths that we know and love? If the Nazgûl were not around in their Third Age form, the One would not have had a very suitable guardian. Presumably a guardian would be needed to keep any wannabe Lords of the Rings away from Sauron's preciouss. And if the Ringwraiths were present at that point, I am very impressed by Ar-Pharazôn's ability to defeat Sauron's forces (unless of course there was no battle necessary). I think that to defeat the Nazgûl without the help of any High Elves would have been quite an accomplishment. One of my reasons for believing Sauron took the One with him to Númenor is his desire for the Ring. It completes him (thanks, Jerry). I think that he was at least as vulnerable as others to the lure of the Ring. True he was Its master, and probably able to control most of its power, but I think he also would have been bound to Its rules. Tolkien's point was that by externalising power, you lose a degree of control over It (his analogy was of a dictator using armies to become powerful, which could not always be relied on completely), and so in a way you become subordinate to It. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.