The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Half-orcs and Uruk-hai, a hypothesis

Nar · 10-24-2002, 11:03 AM

Good and thorough post, Bill! As you know, I agree with you about Saruman wishing to immitate and better the exploits of Melkor and Sauron -- and even Gandalf. However, I don't think that the Uruk-hai came from mixing the blood of men and orcs at all, I think they were simply a large breed of orc. I think there was a great variety in orcs, possibly representing different origins (bigger breeds of orcs might originally have come from corrupted men and littler breeds of orcs from corrupted elves (at one point in the mythos elves were slighter than men) or beasts) or different variations later in the strain. And I think that all orcs were developed with the power of Morgoth, and none were made by Sauron after Morgoth fell. I believe Lindil mentioned that orcs were created by Sauron on Morgoth's behalf while he was a 'parolee' in Valinor, but I still think that it took Morgoth's power deployed by him or a lieutenant to warp creation on that scale.

I do agree with you, I think Treebeard's speculation that Saruman was mixing orcs and men was well-founded and I think the southerner was part orc. However, I think that that was done through ordinary reproductive means applied to already corrupted and enslaved humans and orcs.

There's no way to tell how Saruman would have done it, and that's the sort of thing I suspect JRRT would have hated to speculate about, but regular, garden-variety mating with some minor illusions to ease the trauma wouldn't have been difficult for Saruman to impose on his subjects, and basic assisted reproduction isn't technically difficult to think of or execute. It doesn't even require a microscope. That's all I'll say on THAT subject!

I remain convinced orcs made little orcs in the same old way their original corrupted ancestors did, and not with pods or pits or eggs or marsupial pouches, nor by amoebic division, nor with little squirrel-monsters implanted in a human trachea (ref: Alien), nor any other exotic way. No, orcs got their orclets the same way we get babies: storks brought them. Sorry, I meant fell beasts.

10-24-2002, 11:03 AM	#7
Nar Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 228	Good and thorough post, Bill! As you know, I agree with you about Saruman wishing to immitate and better the exploits of Melkor and Sauron -- and even Gandalf. However, I don't think that the Uruk-hai came from mixing the blood of men and orcs at all, I think they were simply a large breed of orc. I think there was a great variety in orcs, possibly representing different origins (bigger breeds of orcs might originally have come from corrupted men and littler breeds of orcs from corrupted elves (at one point in the mythos elves were slighter than men) or beasts) or different variations later in the strain. And I think that all orcs were developed with the power of Morgoth, and none were made by Sauron after Morgoth fell. I believe Lindil mentioned that orcs were created by Sauron on Morgoth's behalf while he was a 'parolee' in Valinor, but I still think that it took Morgoth's power deployed by him or a lieutenant to warp creation on that scale. I do agree with you, I think Treebeard's speculation that Saruman was mixing orcs and men was well-founded and I think the southerner was part orc. However, I think that that was done through ordinary reproductive means applied to already corrupted and enslaved humans and orcs. There's no way to tell how Saruman would have done it, and that's the sort of thing I suspect JRRT would have hated to speculate about, but regular, garden-variety mating with some minor illusions to ease the trauma wouldn't have been difficult for Saruman to impose on his subjects, and basic assisted reproduction isn't technically difficult to think of or execute. It doesn't even require a microscope. That's all I'll say on THAT subject! I remain convinced orcs made little orcs in the same old way their original corrupted ancestors did, and not with pods or pits or eggs or marsupial pouches, nor by amoebic division, nor with little squirrel-monsters implanted in a human trachea (ref: Alien), nor any other exotic way. No, orcs got their orclets the same way we get babies: storks brought them. Sorry, I meant fell beasts.