[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

By the way: In the thread 'Tuor/Gondolin/Text' some of your points are already mentioned by Tar-Elenion, Maedhros, yourself, Aiwendil and me.

I had forgotten about that thread.

FG-C-22: Yes, it seems that we could not come up with a suitable transition and decided that we must drop the poem. By preference was to make the transition in line 5 by having Tuor compare the sound of the reeds to the sound of the waves in Nevrast, but my line was not so good. Findegil thought a transition in line 6 more promising, but I found those proposals clunky.

Here's another stab at a line 5 transition:

{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green ?
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [hits] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics {subtly} magic that {those} [the] {reeds} [waves] alone {could} [can] weave ?}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

Or perhaps better is:

{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green ?
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [hits] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics subtly magic that {those reeds} [wind and waves] {alone} {could} [can] weave ?}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

I must say, though, that my line 'as the sunset hits the meads' doesn't look too good to me anymore (I can accept a sunset 'touching' something, but 'hitting' is taking it too far, I think). What about 'lights the meads'?

{'Twas} [Here] in the Land of Willows where the grass is long and green ?
I {was} [sit] fingering my harp-strings, for a wind {had} [has] crept unseen
And {was} [is] speaking in the tree-tops, while the voices of the reeds
{Were} [are] whispering reedy whispers as the sunset {touched} [lights] the meads{,}[;]
{Inland}[They echo] musics subtly magic that {those reeds} [wind and waves] {alone} {could} [can] weave ?}
It was in the Land of {Willows} [Nevrast] that once {Ylmir} [Ulmo] came at eve.

{ages}[centuries]: Yes, I suppose you may be right - this change is fine.

FG-T-24:

Originally Posted by Gondowe

And doubt the Doom of Mandos the only thing the Noldor could do was to fly, not go to war against Morgoth.

Remembering the words Ulmo have been speech Turgon in Vinyamar '...that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.'

It sounds like you prefer to remove the counsel that they make alliances and go to war. But the text you posted retains it. Which is your actual preference?

Whether the counsel of war really contradicts the Prophecy of the North, and Ulmo's words to Turgon in Vinyamar, is worth some thought. But how then does one explain the Tale of Years entry, which, it seems to me, quite clearly implies that Ulmo's counsel involves making alliances with other Elves and Men?

I have reviewed the Prophecy of the North again and can find nothing that clearly rules out the possibility of Men and Elves together defeating Morgoth. Nor, I think, do Ulmo's words rule it out - he is saying that the surest way to defeat Morgoth is with the aid of the Valar, but he is not saying that it is the only way.

I think the text proposed by Gondowe is our best option.

Originally Posted by Findegil

It seems to me that we should replace Melko not be Morgoth in the message of Ulmo.

Do you mean that you would prefer:

for {Melko}[Melkor] ringeth them in the Land of Shadows beyond hills of iron.

I can't recall whether we have any examples of the Valar referring to him as 'Morgoth'. But unless we can find some, using 'Melkor' is probably safer.

FG-D-02, -29: It seems that our discussion of this in the 'Mechanical Monsters' thread was not as conclusive as I remembered. I thought we had decided against making any changes for the sake of clarity, but I see now that that was not clearly agreed.

I'm afraid I still don't see the necessity of making these changes. The 'fire-dragon' vs. 'dragon of fire' distinction seems too artificial to me, and more importantly, I don't think the proposed changes have the desired effect of making things any clearer for the reader. If I approach this from the point of view of someone not privy to our discussions, I don't think it would even cross my mind that 'fire-drake' consistently meant something different from 'drake of fire'.

FG-C-03: There was some discussion of this on the first page of this thread, but other than that and the post you mentioned, I cannot find anything.

But my opinion on this is unchanged. I find it incredible that after the Prophecy of the North declares 'Great is the fall of Gondolin', Turgon would blithely go ahead and name their city Gondolin. Remember, in the Lost Tales, Turgon is not yet born when the prophecy is made, and it can more plausibly be supposed that he was unaware of it. Indeed, I would not be surprised if it was for this reason that later accounts of the prophecy omit any mention of Gondolin. So I think it has to be:

Then said the king: FG-C-03 'Great is the fall of Gondolin'{, and men shuddered, for such were the words of Annon the prophet of old}; but Tuor speaking wildly ...

FG-C-26: I don't think I understand why you find 'delta of Sirion' preferrable to 'mouth of Sirion' - to me, they seem synonymous. But we could make it 'the isle at the mouth of Sirion'. (I cannot remember whether Tolkien ever uses the term 'delta' with respect to a river, which is why I preferred 'mouth').

Also, there is some historical present here - I believe it has been our policy to change this to past. So I would suggest:

Yet now those exiles of Gondolin dwelt at the mouth of Sirion by the waves of the Great Sea FG-C-26 <Q30, and joined their folk to the slender company of Elwing daughter of Dior, that had fled thither little while before>. There they {take}[took] the name of {Lothlim}[Lothrim], the people of the flower, for {Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] {is}[was] a name too sore to their hearts; and fair among the {Lothlim}[Lothrim] {Eärendel}[Eärendil] {grows}[grew] in <TE-N(i) the Isle of Sirion in> the <TE-N(i) snow-white stone> house of his father, and the great tale of Tuor is come to its waning.'