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Pile o' Bones
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Re: Many Many Balrogs
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Quote:<hr> So HerenIstarion has given us a version of Bob's contstruction which Bob himself would not provide.<hr></blockquote>
Well the majority of the end conclusion came out anyway, in fact directly before your post.
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Quote:<hr> I will refer to HerenIstarion's explanation of Bob Wehadababyitsaboy's theories as the Elucidation.<hr></blockquote>
Actually, H.I. added his own opinion here and there, which you acknowledge. <img src=smile.gif ALT="
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Quote:<hr> And it is possible that a part was played by spirits who are neither Ainu in origin nor fëa sent by Eru, being such as seem to be prevalent in the period when JRRT wrote The Book of Lost Tales and which might be still part of his cosmos.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, and here I think your use of 'might be' is highly discrectionary.
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Quote:<hr> Yet Elucidation attempts to portray Balrogs as different from Valaraukar despite the apparent identity in the text<hr></blockquote>
For myself, the difference comes from the account of where the Note was placed into the text and of what meaning it had.
It accompanies a change in text, which is concerning the last remaining faithful servants.
Here Maia servants or Balrogs, of which there were 3 or at most 7, applied to the now faithful servants rather than the 'host' which disappears.
Concerning terminology, if I were to ask you of the Children of Eru [All inclusive, as in your examples---this can easily be replaced with Balrogs] to whom would you think I was referring? And are there differences? And how important are they?
Since they are grouped under the same category, they _must_ be the same race and {gender!} as this is the defining criteria you use, where you seem to discount the all inclusive origins of the word itself.
This is without addressing the adopted children of course.
This is the same as accepting all Ealar as Ainu [Valar or Maiar] without taking into consideration that the Author himself questions the validity of the assumption, or WHY the assumption is questioned.
Finding the meaning of the Note is the key. Applying it _universally_ to one 'species' is the problem area.
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Quote:<hr> Nothing in the poem suggest the Húrin would be physically changed, the mention of Balrogs was removed from the offer in "Narn i Hîn Húrin"<hr></blockquote>
True, and I think I even stipulated it could well have been a lie to coerce him with _these_ treacherous gifts of weapons and unmatched mail. What treacherous gifts could Melkor give to an Ainu?
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Quote:<hr> A case of a promise of to make a mortal "chief of Balrogs" was put forward. This has usually been taken to mean a chief under Morgoth commanding Balrogs. No-one has yet suggested, to my knowledge, that the similar offer to Meglin meant that he was to be changed into an Orc.<hr></blockquote>
The question there was, would this by 'defintion' turn Hurin into a Balrog, even though from other papers, the ability of Melkor to affect such physical changes at this time seems vastly diminished or possibly even vanished.
If so, then 'definition' needs to be re-examined.
As for Maeglin, the same sort of 'definition' arises. Physical change was probably beyond the abilities anymore of Melkor, now tied to earthly form. But this is from already having SPENT it beforehand.
Spent on what you ask? That is the question.
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Quote:<hr> Bob's own posts indicate he believes the Balrogs withered and "slain" in the War of the Powers were the weaker sort, while the few stronger survived.<hr></blockquote>
The assumption you believe I made concerning the Balrogs of The War of the Powers where those Balrogs were the weaker ones is incorrect. These are the original Ainu followers of Melkor.
And frankly, I don't know how Elves would have known the difference later, as these Balrogs were destroyed before the Elves could ever see them, shake their hands, and ask to melt S'mores with them.
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Quote:<hr> I'm grateful to Bob Wehadababyitsaboy, who made it possible.<hr></blockquote>
Not my true intent. <img src=wink.gif ALT="
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Helping to [indirectly] solve the dilemma that stymied the progression of revision text---was.
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