Thread: Bye Bye Balrogs
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Old 01-29-2002, 08:43 AM   #68
Aiwendil
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Lindil:If we are being vague about numbers why not say 'and with them rode the Balrogs
possibly adding [ as captains?]
if we have no specific number then we need not have in mind that a 'horde' was riding in , but
Balrogs riding dragons would indeed stick in the minds of any survivors.

Aiwendil: Quite simply, I think it would be a mistake to use the word 'rode' in connection with the Balrogs at all. In the Lost Tales period they were apparently pictured as some kind of elite cavalry - an image that was almost certainly abandoned after LotR. While I'm not saying it's impossible that they rode dragons or other steeds, I think it would definitely be safest to leave out mention of it.

The addition of 'as captains' looks fine to me, filling out the phrase where 'in hundreds' used to be.

Lindil: I think it says in the LR quenta that Winged drgons appeared first at the War of wrath.
Glaurung was a crawler.

Aiwendil: Yes, but I still don't think that it's likely real dragons would have served as mounts. It's hard to imagine Glaurung carrying Balrogs around. Between this and the possibility of Balrogs that can fly, I don't think we can have them ride.

Lindil:lindil: I suggest for the first sentence -
Fearful too they were for that slaughter Rog had done [amid] to the
Balrog{s}, of [those demons] they had great courage and
confidence of heart.

Aiwendil: Looks good to me.

Lindil:hmmm.At the risk of looking dumb why are we cutting down on dragons? sorry if I
missed that point.
Again they are not flying drgons so can not a balrog or 2 ride - whether they need to or not.

Aiwendil: I don't think we're cutting down on dragons, unless I've missed something (which is quite plausible). Was there not only one dragon here in the original text?

Well, I've already summed up my opinion on Balrog riders.

Lindil: Aiwendil: Though I get the feeling I'm stretching ‘monsters' a bit by now.

lindil : much agreed

Aiwendil: Then we'd better go with jallanite's first proposal there.

Lindil:I favor leaving rog killing one balrog - a canon question. However,[though this is really a
question for a later phase of aesthetic revision -if we have one] I do not favor leaving his name
as Rog, it is what I would call be a literary imposibility in any revision JRRT would have made,
and indeed [though not conclusive] we do not see him in the SoME version

The only objection I can see to Rog killing a Balrog is the possibility that JRRT actually intended to cut the number down to three. But I think we can disregard that number even if we do not disregard seven - on the grounds that it would have required changes to both the Battle of the Powers and the War of Wrath.

I'm not so certain that the name 'Rog' would have changed. It's perfectly valid Sindarin, as far as I can see. True, we have no root for it; but there easily could be one. Nor is its coexistence with _raug_ demon as in _balrog_ a problem, as the two already coexisted at the time of the Lost Tales.

Lindil:looking in WotJ' I am of the opinion that the '7 at most ever existed' note should be classified
as an unworkable revision. It should temper our hand w/' horde's and hundred's , but I would
not eliminate the Rog scene [ or now that I think of it the four in the courtyard].

Aiwendil: Well, the purpose of my proposed 'ambiguous version' was to make it unclear whether there are seven, or dozens, or two types, or what have you. I think if you go through the proposed changes you'll find that they don't necessitate any more than three Balrogs to have been there at all - not that I believe for a second that there were only three. Of course, knowing about Durin's bane and needing at least one still to die in the War of Wrath gives us a minimum of five. That's the only reason I'm concerned with having Rog kill one. If he didn't, then we'd be able to cover the possibility that (as jallanite suggested) the note means that three came forward and were slain at the War of Wrath, and only four were around in the later wars.
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