[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

He is an Elf because the Half-elven were given a choice, ""At the end of the First Age the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which KINDRED they would BELONG. Elrond CHOSE to BE of Elven-kind" And those 2 fates were that of Men or of Elves. Elrond chose "to be of Elven-kind", whether you think so or not. In Letter #153 Tolkien says,

"the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's FATE they will SHARE. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race... Elrond chose to be AMONG THE ELVES. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain... have to make their choices... The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while."

Please point to me where he is called an Elf? I have given you direct quotes showing that Elrond and Arwen are not elves. Look at the quotes you are providing. Elrond choose to be AMONG the Elves, not that he chose to be an Elf. Elrond remained an immortal Half-elven just as Elros remained a mortal Half-elf.

Notice that Elrond's is only 'as noble and fair in face as an elf-lord', because he is similar, but not an elf.

Sure it does. This was what the whole problem on Númenor was. They wanted to change their fate from that of Men, which the Half-elven Elros chose, to that of Elves, which the Half-elven Elrond chose. He is referred to as Half-elven because of his ancestry, "in them alone the line of heroic chieftains of the Edain in the First Age was preserved; and after the fall of Gil-galad the lineage of the High-elven Kings was also in Middle-earth only represented by their descendants." [App. A] Are those of Elven-kind Elves or not? What are they Dwarf, Man, Orc, Troll, Hobbit?

No changing your destiny after death does not change what you are. Anymore than it would be correct to say that Luthien was now a WOMAN in the sense she was a female of the Race of Men. I have provided quotes several times here showing that Elrond was never called an elf so I am going to leave it there. Choose to ignore them if you wish.

He was Peredhel because of his ancestry but he clearly chose, as his brother was given leave to do, to choose a fate that of Elves or of Men. He chose that of Elves and his brother that of Men. So even though by ancestry they were both Half-elven, the one became a Man, the other an Elf. He chose the fate of the Elves, which his brother's direct descendants wanted, but they had the fate of Men which their direct ancestor Elros chose. Was Elros a Man having chosen the fate of Men? Was Elrond an Elf having chose the fate of Elves? To you no because they were Half-elven. I say yes, but they were referred to as Half-elven due to their ancestry, not because one was not an Elf and the other not a Man.

He had the right to choose his fate, but not change what he was. He remained a Half-Elf.

That depends on if they had chosen their fate yet which I do not think they had nor had Arwen. It is said, "to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed" [App. A] To be as Elves or as Men, one Doom or the other. Your assumption is that when Elrond's sons are mentioned with Legolas that they had chosen their fate at that time, "The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told,: they delay their choice and remain for a while." [Letter #153]. Do you know this? If so please explain. In PoM-E it is said, "These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind." It seems in this case their choice had to be made before a certain point. Do you know of a point in the 3rd Age when they decided to choose their fate so that you could say "notice how the Sons of Elrond are mentioned separately from Legolas the Elf" implying that they either did not choose the fate of Elves, or that if they had they were still not Elves.

No it does not, because Elrond is given similar description. Elrond himself is only compared to the Elves. Abandoning your elvish rights as Tolkien says did not make Luthien anything other than an Elf. The Half-Elven would remain Half-elves no matter what their fate was.

Yet still a Man never-the-less. The Elven strain in Men certainly uplifted the race of Men, "The entering into Men of the Elven-strain is indeed represented as part of a Divine Plan for the ennoblement of the Human Race" [Letter#153], but they were still Men, the Doom of Men was theirs because they were Men. Elros though Half-elven due to his ancestry, was a Man.

You are ignoring what Tolkien. Elros was a Half-elf, but mortal. Luthien was a mortal Elf, Tuor an immortal man and Elrond and immortal Half-elf.

Difference aside, was this not the same group that Sauron was about to destroy before he left the pursuit of them?

Are you seriously comparing a pitched battle in the open with defending a secure fortress? Do you realise how long it took to capture certain cities?

Please keep geography in mind when you make such declarations lest someone suppose that Rivendell was so great and powerful it would be the last place to be taken. Rivendell is west of the Misty Mountains, most of Sauron's enemies are to the east of them, including Gondor and Lorien.

Does not matter we are told that it would be one if not the very last place to fall due to the power that resides there, but you don't seem to be keen on actually going by what Tolkien tells us.

'Is Rivendell safe?'
'Yes at present until all else is conquered.'

No I didn't, to get through where he wanted to go he and his army "ravaged as they went".

Yes and where they wanted to go was Rivendell. It does not take 3 years to ravage a small group of Elves. You have not come up with a valid reason to what Sauron was doing.

He didn't. You're trying to tell me that Sauron's purpose here was to go up north to siege Elrond at his new position because Elrond was his greatest threat. The text makes no explicit statement to that effect, such as this one in which he entered Eriador &, "turned north and made at once for Eregion" [UT, Bk. 2, ch. 4, p. 249] It is said however that the purpose of Sauron's siege was "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]. The great General Turenne noted, "Make few sieges and give many battles. When once you have made your army superior to that of your enemy, by the number and quality of your troops, which you have nearly done already by the battle of Rocroi; when you are master of the open country, villages will be of as much service as the fortified towns; but it is thought much more honorable to take a fortress... If the King of Spain had spent as much money and men in forming armies, as he has spent in making sieges and fortresses, he would now be the most powerful monarch in the world." [Marshall Turenne, ch. 5] Sauron's siege was meant to "contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [UT, bk2, ch. 4 p. 250] while he cleared a path through Eriador to get the Rings from Lindon.

A better rule is never leave an army at your back. The text implies that Sauron was besieging Rivendell from the amount of time we know he spent in Eriador.

Yes, good job clearing the lands as you march ahead doing as the text says, "Sauron attempted to gain the mastery of Eriador" [UT, p. 250] Where does it say he headed "north to Rivendell"?

How do you gain the mastery of an area without defeating your enemies. How else could he have left a large portion of his forces at Imladris if he did not have it besieged?

Where is it said that Elrond was his biggest threat, the very same threat he could have wiped out, "He would indeed have been overwhelmed" [p. 250]

It's just common sense. You think the small bands of men he was facing were a greater threat than Elrond? Why do you think the siege of Baradur lasted so long?

I don't know that. What I do know is that he came to the borders of Lindon where he "reached the line of the River Lhûn... Gil-galad and the Númenóreans were holding the Lhûn in desperate defence of the Grey Havens, when in the very nick of time the great armament of Tar-Minastir came in; and Sauron's host was heavily defeated and driven back." [UT, p. 250-51] Tell me where it is that you learned of Sauron actually invading Lindon.

The Lhun is the borders of Lindon, Sauron was invading when the Numenoreans drove him back.

No I don't. Pay attention. What I do think is that Sauron left, "a strong detachment to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear." [p.250] That was the purpose of the siege. I do not think the siege's purpose was to overrun Rivendell. I think "Sauron's immediate purpose was to take Lindon" [250] which is why he ravaged its lands to gain the mastery in it, as he moved north then west to clear the way to Lindon.

So you do think Sauron took 3 years clearing up small groups of men? You also think that Sauron purposely weakened his chances of taking Lindon by leaving half his army behind with no attempts to take Imladris.

If you lay a siege to take a city, town, fortress or whatever and get impatient, you don't leave it to move on. Your impatience would actually impel you to storm the place under siege prematurely resulting in a foolish loss of men while the place is still untaken. That is one of the dangers of a siege. Again, unlike your projecting onto me the idea that Sauron would have taken Rivendell "at the drop of the hat", I think that the siege was meant "to contain Elrond and prevent him coming down upon his rear" [p. 250]

You think Sauron had not tried taking Rivendell? Rivendell was not some small castle, but an enchanted valley well capable of sustaining the army. Sauron was not trying to starve them out, but break through. He yet could not break through so he decided to get the Rings of Power first.

[sarcasm]Yes and any man of war worth his salt wastes his time trying to take a place by laying siege to it when his object is something else.[sarcasm] There are only 2 ways of fighting, directly and indirectly, the later of which has inexhaustible methods and these need not apply to being holed up in some fortress. Whether on the high ground, in Rivendell, or at some narrow defile if Sauron's purpose was to destroy Elrond it would have been done. It took him 2 years to lay Eregion waste; you're going to tell me he was only going to give up after one year of besieging Imladris while when he was at Eregion he had enemies at his back?

His actions in Eregion reveal Sauron's mind. He was not happy to leave enemies at his back, but attempted to take Moria. He could not get in and only then did he move on. You now want Sauron to abandon the tactics he employed prior and suddenly leave Rivendell unmolested. Ultimately not taking Rivendell almost cost him his life. It was being caught in the pincer that led to him narrowly escaping. Ironically history repeated itself with the Witch King of Angmar. He too failed to take Rivendell and was caught between a hammer and an anvil.

Could you please provide the references, all if possible, where Elrond is referred to ever as Sauron's biggest threat? Thank you.

I said in Eriador. No quote is needed unless you truly believe that groups of men and small bands of elves were a bigger threat than Elrond.

?????????????????? Explain yourself. I don't get it.

On another note, as you will get into later, Galadriel is said to be with her uncle, "the greatest of the Eldar in Valinor" which would include Glorfindel, assuming he was born at this point. So whether in Gondolin or in Aman she was the greater of the 2.

Greatest does not mean more powerful. Tolkein makes many distinctions between the two.

Hmmm.... interesting. So with one Maia it's a spiritual battle [of course in your defense of Glorfindel you have to bring this up] as well, but with the other [Gil-galad] it is not. Didn't Sauron basically fight Finrod with magic [Lay of Leithian 2165-2222]? Why all of a sudden the a foe of the same class who has been known to employ spells and the like in his battles is stripped of his ways and means when he fights Gil-galad and Elendil?

Of course when you encounter a Maia there is some part of the battle that takes place on a spiritual level. When you look into the eyes (the window to the soul) of a powerful opponent you are daunted. Having enough strength to resist this is vital before you can even think about engaging in a physical battle. Even Huan, undoubtedly greater than Sauron physically was daunted by his eyes.

The same would apply to Ecthelion had he returned. The reborn, "are stronger, having greater mastery of their bodies and being more patient of griefs." [MR, p. 222] So the difference is that one came back to M-E. If both had come back Ecthelion too should have been bolstered. Do you deny this? Otherwise what do you mean by, "the difference between Glorfindel and Ecthelion is that Glorfindel was then made much more powerful on his return"?

Yes Ecthelion would be boosted, but not to the same extent as Glorfindel, because Glorfindel's sacrifice played a vital part in Earendil' survival.

'More important: Glorfindel had sacrificed his life in defending the fugitives from the wreck of Gondolin against a demon out of Thangorodrim, and so enabling Tuor and Idril daughter of Turgon and their child Earendil to escape, and seek refuge in the Mouth of Sirion. Though he could not have known the importance of this ( and would have defended them had they been fugitives of any rank) this deed was of vital importance to the designs of the Valar.'-POME

Glorfindel unwillingly had played a vital part in saving ME and therefore was rewarded.

No I didn't. Where did I say he was not one of the stronger Elves? How am I saying he is not one of the more powerful Elves? Projecting again are you? Let's make a deal. You stop saying that I said things I didn't, unless you quote me, and I won't have to tell you that you're lying.

Well if he was one of the stronger elves already close in power to the strongest and then had his powers GREATLY enhanced it's no wonder he becomes the strongest of the Elves alive.

Both were JUMPED. Come on man are you serious? Let me quote the passages for you as you seem to be lost on this.

"At last Fingon stood alone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrog came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe... and they beat him into the dust with their maces" [Sil., ch. 20, p. 236]

"Long he fought on, and undismayed, though he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds... the Balrogs left him and departed to Angband." [Sil., ch. 13, p. 125]

Feanor was not jumped and had companions. He was dying of his wounds. Fingon fought valiantly, but at best was at a stalemate.

Lies. I said, "Elendil is more likely than not a beast of a Man". I was saying that Sauron got beat twice, once by Luthien and Huan and the other by Gil-galad and Elendil. I brought Luthien up since you hold her, as far as I know, to be the strongest Elf. So when Gil-galad did it against a bolstered Sauron he should not be belittled for doing so. Sure he and Elendil died but in the end they destroyed Sauron's body. I therefore give Gil-galad credit for the destruction of Sauron, whether he had help in doing so, just as Luthien did in beating him, or not.

Calling Elendil 'a beast of a Man' is not putting things into their correct perspective. Elendil was a highly capable man equal to the princes of the Noldor.

Somewhere between 3 and 7. In any case the Balrogs were not alone either when they attacked Fëanor and his small band.

And as you said either was Feanor. In the end he was defeated and unable to kill them.

So you don't except the Silmarillion, fair enough.

"Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Illuvatar." [Sil, p. 112] <- a text you reject.

"This child is the greatest in gifts that hath arisen or shall arise among the Eldar." [MR, Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, p. 240]

"Aule nameth Feanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true." [247]

In later writings Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar and as mentioned previously, greatest has little to do with innate power. Mightiest is the word Tolkien uses for this.

In his latest works there is no doubt, who i the greatest of the Eldar.

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves. -POME
[QUOTE]
Yes she slept them to death and to defeat.[/QUOTE}
Yes her and Beren accomplished what Feanor, his sons and the entire army of the Noldor could not do. She took a Silmaril from Morgoth.

So he did not stay from the 2nd to the 3rd Age? Go read the books.

Twisting Tolkien's words to try and fit your meaning is not going to help. Glorfindel was in no way one of the elves that remained after the War of Wrath. He died prior to it and only came later as an emissary to help in the wars against Sauron.

But he still stayed after the 2nd Age when he returned. So he in fact did remain in M-E, or was he not in M-E in the 3rd Age?

You do realise that up until very late that Glorfindel was supposed to have returned in the 3rd Age? Ignoring that point from the context Tolkien was not talking about rehoused Elves, sent back with the power of Olorin.

This has nothing to do with him remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age into the 3rd. According to you he did not remain. If he did not remain after the 2nd Age he was not in M-E in the 3rd Age, or he left M-E at the end of the 2nd Age and returned with Gandalf and the Istari in the 3rd Age. You say, "Glorfindel is used as an example of the power of an elf" I would say not the only one.

Actually every time Gandalf wants to give an illustration of a powerful elf he brings up Glorfindel. As for his remaining you realise that at that point Glorfindel had only returned in the 3rd age with the Istari.

Even very late on Tolkien still had Glorfindel returning at in the 3rd Age after spending 'from the First Age, through to the Second Age to the end of the First millennium of the Third Age; before he returned to Middle Earth.'-POME

No he isn't. Talk about a misrepresentation of the text. You can quote the part you are talking about in full so everyone can see how off you are on this remark. You will find that piece of text in FotR, bk.2, ch. 3, p. 331.

I did not mean he could storm the Black Gate, because the text obviously states that not even Glorfindel could do this, but it's Glorfindel used, because he is the most powerful elf around.

'and was one (the most powerful one it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell'-POME

So now you talk about rank, when before the leader had to do with being the most powerful. Which is it? Only where Glorfindel is involved and he is the ranking officer is he the most powerful, however, when anyone else like Elrond has leadership it's based on rank.

It's a mixture of both and with Tolkien the two were usually entwined. More often than not the greatest captain is also the one with the highest rank. There are some exceptions like with Maeglin, but for the majority of the time it will be true like with Fingolfin, Fingon, Elendil, Aragorn etc

Because he returned early in the 2nd Age and stayed throughout the 3rd, thus remaining in M-E after the 2nd Age.

This has been explained, but it was obvious from the time of the quote and Glorfindel's very unique situation he was not included amongst them.

Well that was in the First Age. He did not remain in the FA because he died and returned in the 2nd. But he did remain in M-E after the 2nd Age and for most of the 2nd.

AS I have said this was not the case at the time Tolkien wrote the other note. Nor have you mentioned anything about Glorfindel having power close to Olorin. Glorfindel was a special case alongide the Istari and was sent to battle Sauron.

He had an 'air of special power and sanctity' around him.

It's for this reason we can understand 'why Glorfindel seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'.

'and in companionship with the Maiar. To these he had now become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate... his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by self-sacrifice.'