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**lindil** · 04-08-2001, 05:04 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon?

"no, No, NO! " as Gandalf might say.

Tolkien was far more subtle than that.

Frodo did not know the ring would destroy him, indeed when he left Bag-End he was just trying to take it to Rivendell. At the Council he took the burden of the Ring , but there is never any speculation of it being purely suicidal/sacrificial, though clearly jimmy the greek would not have given them good odds.

As for the religious bit, no disrespect meant to Buddha, JRRT was most certainly not depicting him. As for Christ, there is no more attempt to cast Frodo in that mold than there was for Aragorn or Gandalf [ for whom the analogy fits far better] , Beren, Hurin, Finrod or any of a number heroes who made desperate or self-sacrificing gestures.

JRRT does point out by inference that self-sacrificing is necessary to reach any goal, and the larger the goal the larger the sacrifice required.
~Beren gave up a hand for Luthien [not a bad deal assuming she did not mind].
~Earendil gave up Middle-Earth and even normal life in the Undying Lands [although this is one facet of the Myth's Transformed business I would try and retain].
~Hurin gave up his life among the Eldar and Edain to curse Morgoth and according to one older legend, his son will be the one to give Morgoth his death blow at the end of Time.
~Gandalf sacrifices himself and indeed seeming hope of fuulfilling his mission to rid the world of the Balrog who otherwise [c/w]ould have made the next Dark Lord.
~aragorn reounced going straight to Minas tirith to follow merry and pippin.
~Frodo the shire and a normal retirement like Bilbo had.
~Finrod his kingdom etc...

the theme runs throughout Middle-Earth as does it's opposites, pride,greed &/or willfulness.
as seen in Morgoth, Sauron, Feanor, Turgon [not that he is to be seen in the same way as those prior], Turin.
Frodo [and Sam] by the way shows the virtue of obedience as far as his will allows, which is just close enough to allow smeagol [ he who was most tormented by the Ring] to save Middle-earth from Sauron's dominion.

Because Tolkien was attempting to depict truth he could not but draw on the Truth [JesusChrist] ,as the icon self-sacrificing love.This was however as he states in his letters and obliquely in OnFairy-Stories, not an attempt to imitate , but 'to tell a good yarn'. We can safely assume JRRT was using the many depths of the words ' good'. and as we all agree, he achieved exactly what he set out to do.

He was content to let the reader connect the dots from Middle-Earth to earth, from Valinor to the real Heavenly realm, from the foreshadowing of the Incarnation of God * to Christ. I am sure he hoped that the message for being more subtle would be no less powerful.

*mentioned plainly by Finrod in his dialouge w/ Andreth in Morgoth's Ring - the most theological story to survive fromMiddle-Earth, which was supposed to stand as an appendix to the Silmarillion.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/8/01 7:12:18 am

04-08-2001, 05:04 AM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,681	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 586</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> <img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Is Frodo based off of a religious icon? "no, No, NO! " as Gandalf might say. Tolkien was far more subtle than that. Frodo did not know the ring would destroy him, indeed when he left Bag-End he was just trying to take it to Rivendell. At the Council he took the burden of the Ring , but there is never any speculation of it being purely suicidal/sacrificial, though clearly jimmy the greek would not have given them good odds. As for the religious bit, no disrespect meant to Buddha, JRRT was most certainly not depicting him. As for Christ, there is no more attempt to cast Frodo in that mold than there was for Aragorn or Gandalf [ for whom the analogy fits far better] , Beren, Hurin, Finrod or any of a number heroes who made desperate or self-sacrificing gestures. JRRT does point out by inference that self-sacrificing is necessary to reach any goal, and the larger the goal the larger the sacrifice required. ~Beren gave up a hand for Luthien [not a bad deal assuming she did not mind]. ~Earendil gave up Middle-Earth and even normal life in the Undying Lands [although this is one facet of the Myth's Transformed business I would try and retain]. ~Hurin gave up his life among the Eldar and Edain to curse Morgoth and according to one older legend, his son will be the one to give Morgoth his death blow at the end of Time. ~Gandalf sacrifices himself and indeed seeming hope of fuulfilling his mission to rid the world of the Balrog who otherwise [c/w]ould have made the next Dark Lord. ~aragorn reounced going straight to Minas tirith to follow merry and pippin. ~Frodo the shire and a normal retirement like Bilbo had. ~Finrod his kingdom etc... the theme runs throughout Middle-Earth as does it's opposites, pride,greed &/or willfulness. as seen in Morgoth, Sauron, Feanor, Turgon [not that he is to be seen in the same way as those prior], Turin. Frodo [and Sam] by the way shows the virtue of obedience as far as his will allows, which is just close enough to allow smeagol [ he who was most tormented by the Ring] to save Middle-earth from Sauron's dominion. Because Tolkien was attempting to depict truth he could not but draw on the Truth [JesusChrist] ,as the icon self-sacrificing love.This was however as he states in his letters and obliquely in OnFairy-Stories, not an attempt to imitate , but 'to tell a good yarn'. We can safely assume JRRT was using the many depths of the words ' good'. and as we all agree, he achieved exactly what he set out to do. He was content to let the reader connect the dots from Middle-Earth to earth, from Valinor to the real Heavenly realm, from the foreshadowing of the Incarnation of God * to Christ. I am sure he hoped that the message for being more subtle would be no less powerful. mentioned plainly by Finrod in his dialouge w/ Andreth in Morgoth's Ring - the most theological story to survive fromMiddle-Earth, which was supposed to stand as an appendix to the Silmarillion. Lindil* is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/8/01 7:12:18 am __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.