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Alfirin · 01-02-2014, 07:44 AM

Another point that might come into confict is thry to define by what standard the 1/14th would be defined; by value, weight,volume etc. By volume or weight of course, Bilbo is perfectly fine. But if by value, which a lot of people would consider the "obvios" defintion especially given terms like "cash on demand"+-9 , then it is possible Thorin would possibly still be on decent legal ground (on the grounds that the Arkenstone was prized so greatly by the Dwarves that they would probably value it higher than the rest of the hoard put together).
Actually, the very terms of that contract sound a little sketchy anyway. You notice Thorin says from the beginning ("1/14 of the profits (if any) not "1/14 of the hoard". Nice an legal, but it actually does give Thorin a sneaky opening. In once sense it works to Bilbo's advantage, since it techically means he is entitled to 1/4 of the Troll hoard as well. But by defining it as "total profits" Thorin actually has ample opportunity, if he feels so inclined to cut Bilbo out entierly. He can claim that the hoard is communal property of the Dwaven kingdom of Erebor, and as such does not actually belong to any of the party personally, so no party profit actually ensued (i.e. bilbo is entiteld to 1/14 of nothing, and always was). Or he could deduct from the shares such expenses as accrued from the trip. For the dwarves these retroactive expenses are largely meaningless, as they are being paid from them to them (so it's really just being re-paid) but Bilbo, who is NOT a member of the Dwaven Kingdom, could easily find his 1/14 eaten up with "expenses". Or at best, Thorin could combine the two and say that the "profits" were the Troll hoard (since that actually WAS property claimed by the party), so Bilbo can have 1/14 of that, (actually since Thorin is probably planning to be busy setting up his kingdom for a while, he might have simply ceded ALL of the Troll hoard to Bilbo as his share (it can't be worth much compared to the whole of Erebor. Plus it is along Bilbo's way back home) and save himself having to send dwarves back to retrieve it.
Actually Thorin could actually claim Bard and Esgaroth owed THEM money, or that the debt was squared. Since Smaug's belly was largely plated with gold and gems from the hoard stuck to it, it could be argued that, when Smaug left the cave he took part of the Dwarves property with him, and that by deciding to shoot Smaug while he was over water (like Bard had a choice!) Bard deprived the Dwarves of a portion of thier property that might otherwise have been retrievalbe (If Smaug had died over land, presumably his body could have been dug up and the gems and gold retrieved) and that any question of remuniration could not be redressed until that portion was retrieved so the whole of the Hoard could be asseses (actually since at that point, Thorin did not know that Bilbo had the Arkenstone, it's a little odd he isn't brooding on that fact. Knowing that it should be there, and that he has not found it. the thought might enter into his mind that it was PART of the stuff stuck to Smaug's belly, and is now simply sitting at the bottom of Lake Esgaroth waiting to be retrieved. From that POV it's a wonder Thorin is calling in friends from the Iron hills with pumps to come and negotiating to drain the lake!

01-02-2014, 07:44 AM	#6
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Another point that might come into confict is thry to define by what standard the 1/14th would be defined; by value, weight,volume etc. By volume or weight of course, Bilbo is perfectly fine. But if by value, which a lot of people would consider the "obvios" defintion especially given terms like "cash on demand"+-9 , then it is possible Thorin would possibly still be on decent legal ground (on the grounds that the Arkenstone was prized so greatly by the Dwarves that they would probably value it higher than the rest of the hoard put together). Actually, the very terms of that contract sound a little sketchy anyway. You notice Thorin says from the beginning ("1/14 of the profits (if any) not "1/14 of the hoard". Nice an legal, but it actually does give Thorin a sneaky opening. In once sense it works to Bilbo's advantage, since it techically means he is entitled to 1/4 of the Troll hoard as well. But by defining it as "total profits" Thorin actually has ample opportunity, if he feels so inclined to cut Bilbo out entierly. He can claim that the hoard is communal property of the Dwaven kingdom of Erebor, and as such does not actually belong to any of the party personally, so no party profit actually ensued (i.e. bilbo is entiteld to 1/14 of nothing, and always was). Or he could deduct from the shares such expenses as accrued from the trip. For the dwarves these retroactive expenses are largely meaningless, as they are being paid from them to them (so it's really just being re-paid) but Bilbo, who is NOT a member of the Dwaven Kingdom, could easily find his 1/14 eaten up with "expenses". Or at best, Thorin could combine the two and say that the "profits" were the Troll hoard (since that actually WAS property claimed by the party), so Bilbo can have 1/14 of that, (actually since Thorin is probably planning to be busy setting up his kingdom for a while, he might have simply ceded ALL of the Troll hoard to Bilbo as his share (it can't be worth much compared to the whole of Erebor. Plus it is along Bilbo's way back home) and save himself having to send dwarves back to retrieve it. Actually Thorin could actually claim Bard and Esgaroth owed THEM money, or that the debt was squared. Since Smaug's belly was largely plated with gold and gems from the hoard stuck to it, it could be argued that, when Smaug left the cave he took part of the Dwarves property with him, and that by deciding to shoot Smaug while he was over water (like Bard had a choice!) Bard deprived the Dwarves of a portion of thier property that might otherwise have been retrievalbe (If Smaug had died over land, presumably his body could have been dug up and the gems and gold retrieved) and that any question of remuniration could not be redressed until that portion was retrieved so the whole of the Hoard could be asseses (actually since at that point, Thorin did not know that Bilbo had the Arkenstone, it's a little odd he isn't brooding on that fact. Knowing that it should be there, and that he has not found it. the thought might enter into his mind that it was PART of the stuff stuck to Smaug's belly, and is now simply sitting at the bottom of Lake Esgaroth waiting to be retrieved. From that POV it's a wonder Thorin is calling in friends from the Iron hills with pumps to come and negotiating to drain the lake!