[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The problem with trying to merge the "Numenorean" and "Bilbo" theories is simply this: if we want to postulate Bilbo as the vector for garbled Mannish traditions, it's very difficult to imagine that he would not have been told, or already know, that they were bullsh!t: by Elrond, by Glorfindel, by Gandalf, by who knows who else resident in or visiting Rivendell, house of loremasters.

After all, Glorfindel had walked across the Helcaraxe, at least according to the only version of the mythos we have; certainly he would have been in a position to tell Bilbo whether the world was round or flat in the Elder Days!

This seems to be something you find problematic -- but I don't anyway, and it appears (so far) that at least one other person in this thread doesn't either. Translating ancient materials is one thing, "correcting" them another, the latter being not only unnecessary, but given the arguably "gravity" of the ancientry (and artistry) Bilbo is dealing with, he might be expected not to alter things.

If someone handed you an ancient Greek document to translate, for example, and you knew (or were told) that five things in it were factually inaccurate, would you alter these references? That's very arguably not your job, and likewise not Bilbo's. And even then, it's not like the Hobbit need leave out evidences of the Elvish perspective if the fuller legendarium includes (as I think it would) accurately translated texts that are more Elvish in nature -- more accurately describing the world from a Western Elvish perspective even in the Mannish The Drowning of Anadune, again in which the Western Elves teach the Numenoreans that the world is round (before the fall).

I don't see why you find this problematic. Granted the following example isn't perfect for obvious reasons, but art restoration isn't about correcting the background of the Mona Lisa, for instance, simply because it might be problematic in some (arguable) way. And there's nothing in print (that I recall) that blocks a pathway to keeping Bilbo, despite the re-characterization of the Silmarilliom -- which again, allows those who are minded to find the "old" cosmology problematic (if beautiful), a path to accept it as art if not utter truth in all respects.

Well, I read that passage to mean that material on Gondorian history, as well as the "southern" Gondorian poems, were added by Pippin after Frodo and Bilbo's departure,...

If you mean the first edition Appendix A passage, I agree it could be read like that, though not only that way perhaps, but it still appears that it's possible that "Southern matter" could reach Bilbo through Rivendell. In ATB the narrator notes that though poem 6 is placed next to Bilbo's Man-in-the-Moon rhyme, it must be derived ultimately from Gondor (first suggesting, I think, that 6 couldn't be Bilbo's, but then note what is said again about this matter and Bilbo). Poems 6 and 16 must be...

"... re-handlings of Southern matter, though this may have reached Bilbo by way of Rivendell. No 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Numenorean, concerning the Heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim the Dwarf."

(...) One of these was apparently influenced by the "Numenorean tale of Mim and the dragon," apparently a different text than Dirhavel's Narn (which wasn't Numenorean). That could have come either from Gondor by way of Pippin or Arnor by way of Bilbo, there's no way to tell.

Dirhaval's original wasn't Numenorean, yes. So what were Tolkien's thoughts in ATB about this tale of Turin and Mim referred to? Hard to know, but later...

As is seen in The Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Numenor, which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which "The Children of Hurin" was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All however are "Mannish" works.

JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor, note 17, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

If a Mannish poet Dirhaval is still in play within the late idea, he's not only a Man but had his work translated into prose even in the old Elfwine scenario (as Elfwine did not think himself up to a verse translation). A prose version written by a Numenorean could be referred to as a Numenorean tale, which could (at least) agree with the reference in ATB.

And as said, Dirhaval is a Man (keeping in mind the earlier MT statement) "... but already far back -- from the first association of the Dunedain with the Eldar in Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas." And then we can have his work be rendered into prose by other hands and minds in Numenor, then on to Middle-earth, ultimately to Bilbo.