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Old 02-24-2006, 01:46 AM   #32
Kuruharan
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,685
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
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It's the brazen, arrogant ingratitude that sticks in my craw.
I beg your pardon. Ingratitude for what?

And why do you have such a high opinion of Finrod and a low opinion of Turgon when the policies they set for their kingdoms were exactly the same? I detect a double-standard here.

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Comparing this style of leadership with that of another, imagine if Aragorn decided to lock himself up in a tower and not actually get out there and lead the people? His active leadership was a major influence on his acceptance by the people.
The situations were hardly similar. Aragorn was trying to be made a king. Turgon was already a king. When he became High King (which I don't think really rose to the level of a "ceremonial" role) he "ruled" (much too strong a word) over a shattered people who had no further capacity for effective action. In a way, he was showing the example to the Noldor that their only hope lay in staying in the tall grass.

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And was it right for him to be isolationist when his kin were engaged in the struggle against Morgoth?
For before he became High King: see above note regarding comparison to Finrod.

For after he became High King: What kin? What struggle? When he became High King, the sons of Feanor were broken nomads who could do nothing. Nargothrond was following exactly the same policy as Gondolin until the unstable Turin convinced the dimwit Orodreth to forsake it. Then Nargothrond was broken. Who or what was left? (And don't go mentioning Doriath, Thingol would have passed out at the prospect of calling Turgon "kin.")

In fact, Turgon attempted to engage in the only sensible action to save his people. Try to get to the Valar and abjectly beg forgiveness.

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Aredhel demonstrates how even living in a perfect, beautiful and safe environment can be a confinement worse than being locked in a jail cell; she chooses adventure and danger over this paradise-prison.
It demonstrates that Aredhel was a spoiled brat. The Noldor were not in Middle-earth to have a jolly good time. There is a quote from an orc that might have done Aredhel a world of good, "Don't you know we're at war?" The Noldor were at war faced with an enemy far beyond their strength. The only thing they could do was make the best of their dire situation. Aredhel, in her empty-headed silliness, willfully disregarded this part of her brother's role and selfishly demanded her own way and the ultimate result was complete disaster. I'm often inclined to think that Maeglin's naughtiness was more a result of his mother's nature than his father's.

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Was she trying to state her new found independence?
She had the opportunity to state her "independence" when she decided to join the rebellion. That was when she chose "freedom" from the Valar. However, freedom from the Valar meant subugation to her brother who was trying to protect her as well as the thousands of others who followed him. This she also must have chosen for herself, it is not like she did not have a father or other brother (both of whom were also kings) who did not lay down such strictures about freedom of movement (which as far as I can tell is all you mean by "freedom.") I don’t think Aredhel ever understood there were other people in the world than herself and other needs greater than her narrow wants.

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Turgon did them a disservice in the long run.
He did them a gross disservice by taking part in leading them to Middle-earth at all. After this, he did the best he could (under the advice of no less than Ulmo). I'm afraid Aredhel is not compelling evidence that Turgon did not do well by his people.
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Last edited by Kuruharan; 06-06-2017 at 02:22 PM. Reason: So over ten years later I stroll through this thread and notice for the first time an embarassing spelling error. The shame!
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