[Pitchwife]

Well, I had another source in mind, but that works too.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

From Letters, it seems to me that Tolkien's hero in Frodo was one that had a broken 'mind' not 'body' because of war. With crushing weight upon the mind borne because of a malevolent invasive influence that literally strips or something or violates mind, flesh and Spirit.

And (that's the insidious part) an influence that had the power to make him miss it, long for it even after its source had been destroyed:

Originally Posted by LotR Book VI, The Grey Havens

On the thirteenth of that month Farmer Cotton found Frodo lying on his bed; he was clutching a white gem that hung on a chain about his neck and he seemed half in a dream.
'It is gone forever', he said, 'and now all is dark and empty.'

We know what 'it' is, don't we? And to Frodo, all seems 'dark and empty' without it. Even knowing what it has done to him, and what it would have done to the world. That's not Lust and Greed, that's addiction and just being unable to help it. Violation isn't too strong a word for what he suffered.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

This is interesting. How was his failure addressed, I wonder? By what intervention or on what Terms?

Hm, I've got to confess I've never been never been too enthusiastic about the assumption that the finger of Eru pushed Gollum over the brink. It's just not necessary IMO - I mean, given all we know of Gollum's character it's natural he'd be so enraptured about regaining the Precious he wouldn't mind his steps and stumble.

There are some interesting What-If-scenarios to be explored here. What if Sméagol had truly repented before leading Frodo to Shelob's Lair and been present at Sammath Naur? I remember Tolkien speculating somewhere (?) that he might have taken the Ring and jumped into the fire of his free will, sacrificing himself for Frodo.

But he could only do that because Frodo had mercy and left him alive. What if there had been no Gollum at Sammath Naur (supposing they would have gut so far without him)? I suppose it would have fallen to Sam to see to the Ring's destruction, and I've read a fan fiction exploring this scenario which ends with Sam hurling himself and Frodo into the fire with the Ring. A grim ending, but about the only alternative.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I'm wondering about a little something else as well. The 'white robes' effect on Orodruin - could equally have a 'line of effect' to Elrond (did Elrond 'imbue' just a wee little Elvish-ness INTO Frodo as a final added deterrent to wraith-isation. Yes, Frodo was getting pretty creepy at times and 'white' can also be either of Spectral White of the Necromantic --OR-- Valinorean kind. Random thought

Not going to lie, when I wrote that above I had a moment of "Wait, weren't the Nazgûl robed in white under their cloaks? Crap!" *checks* "Ah, no, they're grey." *sigh of relief* (Grey seems to be the colour of the Otherworld with Tolkien - grey robes of the Ringwraiths, twilight of the wraith world - but also elven cloaks and boats and rope.)

About 'Spectral White', I was going to find a little cherry for you and looking for any mention of whiteness in Galadriel's "All shall love me and despair" scene (inspired by the White Lady whose ghost has haunted the European subconscious for a long time - ancestral memories of the Sorceress of Dwimordene?), but no such luck - it's only after she has rejected the Ring that she's described as "a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white". But I digress.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

One of the reasons I was wary of Frodo, at Elrond's was because Frodo spoke as though it were 'not' him. That was a dissociation of will, I often wondered, an unconscious motivation to keep the Ring.

I wonder for this debate, if it's always 'two truths' point to the same ali.gnment, somehow in argument. If one accepts that the Ring creates a 'split' in the Mind's Eye or a Splinter (ergo Star Wars Splinter of the Mind's Eye), then, of course, we are always going to have dual motivational systems at work for any bearer.

Without seeing the need to drag Star Wars into this (I read that novel way back when but remember nothing of it), I agree, and you have to admire the way Tolkien presents this ambiguity:

Originally Posted by LotR Book II, The Council of Elrond

A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken.

(realizing he was 'meant' to do this)

Originally Posted by ibid.

An overwhelming longing to rest and remain with peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart.

(retarding moment, hoping to be spared)

Originally Posted by ibid.

At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words,

(driven to volunteer in spite of himself by the voice of conscience)

Originally Posted by ibid.

as if some other will was using his small voice.

A lot hinges on the 'as if' here - was it another will that spoke through him or not? And if it was, which will could that have been but the will of the Ring itself?

Interesting and challenging thread by the way. Makes me regret I repped you on the Riddles thread so I can't for this one. And one more thing: outside of Werewolf games it's perfectly OK to edit your latest post to add stuff that has come to mind afterwards. No need for double or triple posting.

(PS.- Pervinca: Yes, Greenie = A Little Green, but I was quoting from Stephen R. Donaldson's Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever.)