[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I think the Men of Dunharrow are exactly what they're called, they are indeed dead. Spirits, bound to not be at rest because of their broken oath. Which is I think interesting considering the theme of Men's fear of death. Even if their blades no longer have any "bite" (Gimli makes a comment about this), few of the living could endure them, because it's like being confronted by their own mortality, literally staring into the face of their "Death."

But how do the "spirits" (for lack of a better identification) in the Dead Marshes fit in here? The Men of Dunharrow are bound by an oath. What about the "dead faces" Gollum describes:

I think you've drawn a good distinction here: dead means no longer having a body. You 'cannot reach them', their blades have no bite. To this category I would add Gorlim's appearance to Beren, and the ghosts of Cardolan:

Originally Posted by Fog on the Barrow-Downs

'What in the name of wonder?' began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over one eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. 'Of course, I remember!' he said. 'The men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!' He clutched at his breast.

They don't appear visibly, but Merry is clearly briefly possessed by some remnant of the locals.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The Ringwraiths, on the other hand, are the undead. I don't have access to the full OED, but the entry for "undead" is: "(of a fictional being, especially a vampire) technically dead but still animate."

The full online definition matches ("In vampirism, clinically dead but not yet at rest.") Looking at the examples, I think this is a Bram Stoker coinage - all the pre-Dracula usages look to just mean 'not dead'.

Originally Posted by The First tome..of the Paraphrase..vpon the Newe Testamente, 1548

Where as all men did eat therof, they neuertheles dyed, nether did any one of so great a number remain vndead.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Generally, this definition I think fits the Ringwraiths...they should be dead, but are not because they can still physically interact with the living (much different from the Oathbreakers and the spirits in the dead marshes). Indeed they are kept animated by their Rings of Powers, which gave their bearers immortality...or did it?

...

Which this all leads to I guess my major question...is Gollum "undead?" That is if the Ringwraiths are kept animate merely because of the Rings, and when the Ring is destroyed the Ringwraiths pretty much fizzled out:

If Gollum had not fallen in with the Ring, wouldn't he have just "went out" like the Nazgul? And if he was only being sustained because of the Ring, would this fit the definition that Gollum was "undead?"

Originally Posted by Soriman the Whide

Gollum maintains a physical body throughout. Not quite undead yet in my book.

Now this is one I hadn't even thought about before. We know that the Nazgul were undead: Eowyn claims it, and Tolkien directly tells us:

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. ‘But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Éomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him.’

...

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

(The end of Eowyn's line is one of my favourite spoken lines in the entire book. ^_^)

I feel like the Nazgul were still somewhat corporeal - they can sit on horses, and their cloaks stay up - even if not visible. But as Soriman indicates, they were also not fully embodied. They survive being swept down a raging river, which isn't plausible for humans. Gollum, on the other hand, feels like he could still be injured; the Ring had extended his lifespan, but not turned him into something new.

The OED actually quotes a Tolkien-related source on this: P. H. Kocher's 1973 Master of Middle-Earth:

They still inhabit their original bodies, but these have faded and thinned in their component matter until they can no longer be said to exist in the dimension of the living. Their flesh is not alive, not dead, but ‘undead’.

Gollum's flesh was still alive, as far as we know - he eats, he feels pain. The Nazgul's had become something else.

And what about the Barrow-Wights? My understanding is they're spirits (of the dead? Maiar or other unembodied?) sent by the Witch-King to possess the bodies of the fallen Cardolan royalty. Since they are making use of flesh (or just bones? I've always understood the 'long arm' to have skin and so on, but the fact that the hand 'broke off' might imply something more brittle), are they undead? Or are they just dead and making use of handy corpses?

hS