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Old 01-31-2005, 07:42 AM   #37
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,150
Aiwendil has been trapped in the Barrow!
Maedhros wrote:
I'm sorry for not making myself clear. In the case of the Letter 247, it is explictly staten that Beren regains the rôle that he once had in TY B and that the battle took place about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir.
But both Ascar and Gelion are counted among the seven rivers. I do not think that the reversion from Celegorm and Curufin back to Beren necessitates a reversion from Ascar back to Gelion.

Findegil wrote:
The possible transfer of the name Sarn Athrad to the supposed Ford over Ascar I mention in post #26.
I had failed to notice the significance of this change earlier.

I have a few disagreements with your summary of the texts.

Now Tolkien "discovered" the story of the fight of the Folk of Haleth against the Orcs. This necessitated a change in the geography by which Sarn Athrad moved to a place somewhat north of the confluence of Ascar and Gelion.
I don't know that it matters, but I don't think this can have been his motivation for moving the ford from its Q30 position. The placing of Sarn Athrad south of the confluence, as in Q30, presents no problem for the story of the battle of the Folk of Haleth and the Orcs, since the Halethrim took refuge on the north side of the confluence.

That the pass south of the Dolmed led still into Ossirinad and therefore came down south of Ascar is seen by the fact that all the groups of Men that came over the mountains first came to Ossiriand and not to Thargelion.
I am not so sure about this. Do we know for certain that the Edain came through that pass? Is it not possible that they came up into Ossiriand out of the southeast, and thus passed south of the mountains? Or, is it not possible that the pass came down north of Ascar and that the Edain crossed the river into Ossiriand (for in any case, Ascar must not be impassable for its whole length).

In the above given interpretation of mine a "slip of the pen" is only once needed to make it work. I view that as a evidence that I am not to fare of track, since to supposed that the author is in error by writing about his own creation is a trick that only works for me as ultima ratio.
But one could make a coherent story out of things without supposing any "slips of the pen" - if Tolkien in fact changed his mind in "Maeglin" and returned Sarn Athrad to Gelion.

It would seem to me very strange for us to use "Athrad Daer", which occurs only as a replacement for Sarn Athrad, for the ford over Gelion, and too retain "Sarn Athrad" for the ford over Ascar. For this was certainly not Tolkien's intention when he wrote "Athrad Daer". On the other hand, it also seems wrong for us to now place the battle, which in every text occurs at Sarn Athrad, at an unnamed ford over Ascar.
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