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Old 06-16-2005, 01:18 AM   #19
HerenIstarion
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ramble along as I sing a song...

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
This will again seem like I'm on my hobby horse, but I think we have to restrict ourselves to the way in which death can be seen as a 'gift' within the context of Middle earth. In Middle earth there is no account of what happens to men after death
Ah, davem, it seems like a high time to bring my own mount of choice to race you in this Derby. Whilst I wholeheartedly agree with discussing inside the ME bounds, I have several bones to pick, and maybe even gnaw at with you

Per instance, why should not we see Death as a punishment and a gift at the same time? Even not drawing in Primary World references, Atrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth hints at possibilities of viewing it thus, as, you no doubt, remember, as seen here

Indeed, it is a Punishment – severance of the body and soul, which was not originally designed, is a pain in itself. It is a gift, gift of freedom, for unless the soul should be let go, the whole combination goes under Morgoth. Whatever lies beyond (and is unknown or unkown fully), is an option better to becoming thrall to him. Besides, whatever comes from Eru, is considered to be for the good of his Children (stated as such by Finrod, so far for textual evidence):

Quote:
If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of His own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy
Indeed, the whole existence is His gift, as Eru is free and has no need to give:

Quote:
Note 1 to AFaA

The Eldar held that Eru was and is free at all stages
Brief aside concerning the kind of freedom Men have:

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Men are not bound by the Music, so can change the world, in a way that other races/beings cannot, they can therefore 'think outside the box'
Last time we’ve been through this, I have had another option. I stand by it still: the freedom (of will) of all rational beings lies in the choice they are given, as the ultimate Freedom is with Eru:

Quote:
'As he ever has judged,' said Aragorn. 'Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house.'
Therein lies the story: given the same ruler of Good and Evil, all Children should measure with it their actions in similar way, and the freedom is in the process of measurement, not in different ruler. But one can not measure the same length with same ruler and come out with differing numbers? There is nothing special about humans in this respect apart from the mode of their death. But death is not their freedom per se, it is their fate! And according to Finrod’s guess (and that being only textual evidence withing ME so only reliable source) it is through their death that they bring change. Add to that vague references to probable Incarnation of Eru made in the same conversation, and you get another option for a Death to be a gift: it is a gift of Freedom (from Morgoth) right now, but in the future, it may become the gift of Creation (of the new world – Arda Remade). So it is gift now and greater gift potentially. (hum, 2gifts-1punishment=1gift? but that’s just a prank, do not heed )

Let's draw some logical chains:

1. According to Andreth, Men were designed to be immortal eternally, not bound by Arda’s fate.
2. Since separation of fëa and hröa is thought to be unnatural, in back reasoning, they were meant to lift the matter along with their spirit to some new level of existence
3. They fell. Death came as a release for them from Morgoth (so is the Gift in itself), but as it brought [unnatural] separation of fëa and hröa, it is at the same time a punishement. But the ‘gift part’ of it is greater – it a) grants them freedom from Morgoth b) makes their fate ‘fulfillable’, though modifies the mode of its achievement c) promises ‘third thing and greater’ – Eru Himself entering His own creation (Incarnation) and remaking of Arda

Even if Morgoth hoped for the outcome of the Man’s Fall when he contrived it to benefit him, and even if it was Morgoth’s design to have human fëar separated from their hröar (assuming he was aware of their fate and thus was planning to disrupt the Plan), he was defeated by the general principle (And thou, Melkor, shalt see...). That gives Finrod ground for joy, as he exclaims:

Quote:
This then, I propound, was the errand of Men, not the followers, but the heirs and fulfillers of all: to heal the Marring of Arda, already foreshadowed before their devising; and to do more, as agents of the magnificence of Eru: to enlarge the Music and surpass the Vision of the World!
For that Arda Healed shall not be Arda Unmarred, but a third thing and a greater, and yet the same.
And, since Men, despite they did fall, are still set on the task, and if the means of fullfilling it is their death as opposed to whatever the original design planned, than Death is a Gift! Is not it enough for the death stand of its own (as a gift) withing the secondary world?

Analogy (warning: quite a crude one) I’m nearsighted. Spectacles I wear are my punishment, as they rub the bridge of my nose red at times, I keep on forgetting them in the bathroom, my sporting activities are restricted to jogging or swimming, as the playing of football or tennis bears certain risks of getting them shattered right on my face. But, and grave ‘but’ at that, they are more Gift and blessing for me than a suffering, as with these on, I can see, thus fullfilling the destiny my eyes were devised for, unless the Fall in the face of my crystalline lens’ bad behaviour came about!

Quote:
Originally Posted by davem
Maybe that is the reason death is called a 'gift' - not death itself but the role they have within Arda of which death is a part - a central, essential, part, but a part nonetheless. Death is the means by which they fulfil their role.
Yes, yes and yes! Your ‘maybe’ caused the whole previous paragraph, all in all
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Last edited by HerenIstarion; 06-16-2005 at 01:22 AM.
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