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Old 07-22-2009, 04:11 PM   #37
gondowe's Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2009
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gondowe has just left Hobbiton.
Evidently I don´t pretend to convince anybody of my opinions about this questions, but in order to resume my vision of the matter and finish for my part this discussion, I would like to enumerate the points of what I think:

As Tolkien left the mythology unfinished, we must try to investigate among the material he left to us. But of course we (I) must be erroneous.

First of all, the Cuivienyarna is stated to be a legend even among the Eldar, not a kwoledge as "the wise men say". Few or no tales are stated as legends among the Eldar. A legend is half “truth” (subcreation), half invention. So the names could be (if you can say fan-fictionally) a sort of epesse and the tale and wives a “poetic” invention.

Ingwe is stated , of course in a 30’s text like the Lammas, that was the first to awake. I think there’s no later text contradicting.
But he also had a sister (Indis or her mother). So we can say that it cannot be possible, unless they could be brethren in the mind of Iluvatar, I like to think this second.

The same for Elwe/Thingol as is stated in the post above and the same for his brothers.

I said before: “As is said later (I think in Ruin of Doriath) Thingol himself tells that his life begun in Cuivienen. Of course it could be possible he was begotten in Cuivienen, but it mades me odd that the ambassadors were not "one of the most ancient people, means the Unbegotten"”.

If we can take as truth all above, we can think the same about Finwe.

In other way If Ingwe was the first and was one of the three ambassadors, so Finwe and Elwe must be the second and third.

For me the key is how to interpret the Cuivienyarna, if as “true subcreation” or mere poetic tale, “legend”.

Tolkien didn’t write nowhere if the three ambassadors were the three main chiefs of the clans (that for me means the first three ones) or not, but I think there are more data to think so than not to think it.

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