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Originally Posted by elbenprincess

Yes, but Elrond defended Rivendell with an army but not with his innate power.

Where it is said that he took out all 9 wraiths at the same time? That would be really impressive.
I know that the Witch King would not dare to face the white ring (Galadriel with nenya) and therefore went arond Lorien.

Galadriel too had an army at her back and it was bigger than the one at Rivendell. Elrond controlling the must be down to his power. Rivendell also had a spell making it virtually impossible for enemies to find.

Yes, I agree, I said wrong, I think she maybe was the most in need for it, or she felt that she had the most need, Lorien was very dear to her and it surely hurt her to know that it would fade in the end. And therefore she was so tempted.

That's not true and you know it. The entire world and everyone good in it was dear to Gandalf. Where as Aragorn had one chance to return his people to their former glory or lose it and Arwen too.

With Aragon I agree but why had Gandalf more to loose than Galadriel? I wouldn´t say it´s the case, if they would fail Gandalf wold just return to Aman, I doubt the Valar would punish him, it would not be after all his fault.

It's because Gandalf cared about everything good in ME and wanted to save it all, not just one place as he tells Denethor. It was not only down to duty, but love as well.

I rather see Galadriel here being sarcastic. I don´t think she ever seriously considered doing that to FrodoI admit I have problems understanding what Galadriel means in that passage but I would interpret it this way:

„Would that not be nice proof of the Ring’s power if I took it from my guest by force or cunning?“

Yes she was joking about it, but at the same time it was something she had considered.

"Characters with pride without majesty do not" What do you mean? Galadriel, because she was proud was tempted, Arwen would not because she was majestic? I rather think Arwen wasn´t tempted, cause she never had the ambition of her grandmother and wasn´t interested in ruling people.

Sorry I meant to say "characters with majesty without pride". Arwen had ambitions to marry Aragorn, which depended on him regaining the throne. Again don't you find it ironic that Arwen rules a greater area than Galadriel.

Yes, but without the Noldor it might have been too late to save Elves and Men, they made the grondwork and hindered Morgoth to expand his might.

The Sindar were safe in Doriath for a while and Men had rejected Eru; a worse crime than the Noldor had committed.

It´s nice for some people, but other people just want more in life, they want have something they can call their own, for which they worked hard for, went through many dangers and can finally be proud of it. The kings were surely very proud of their kingdoms and it is a shame that all was destroyed. In Aman, everything is there from the beginning, you don´t have to work for it. It´s not that the Noldor didn´t want to life in peace with their family, they just wanted to have it in ME and not be dependent on the Valar.

That's rubbish. The Noldor worked hard and built Tiron with their hands. Things were not just there from the beginning. Many of them regretted leaving their great works behind. It was due to pride and arrogance. They wanted to be the greatest people around, rather than the lowest as they were in Valinor.

Calling them power hungry is too harsh, it sounds as if they come to ME and suppress every elf they meet and force them to accept them as rulers, I rather think that they wanted to prove what they are able to set up, without the help of the Valar. It´s just a shame that the Valar reacted this way, OK, they went the same time Feanor went, but most didn´t supported him but still they all are treated equally, even those who are guiltless in the kinslaying, that is unfair.

They were power hungry and immediately came to ME and started usurping land that belonged to Thingol, who was king of all Beleriand. If they wanted to show what they could do against Morogth they got what they wanted. If they wanted realms of their own without the power of the Valar they got it. They all died except Galadriel and all of their realms were destroyed. That's what they got without the Valar.

Yes, in the end they all wanted to return to Aman, but then they never said that they wanted to stay in ME forever. That Valar should just have let them make their experiences and after that welcome them back (what they later of course did) IMHO the ban was unnecessary, it seems to me they felt insulted only because they didn´t followed their orders. It is their land and the elves have to follow their rules, but they are not their property.

The whole world is under their rule. You seem to not want to accept this. Manwe is king of Arda too. If you reject the council of the Valar, break their rules in their own home then why should they allow you back? Just like with giving men Numenor the Valar were merciful.

OK, but why not at the time it actually happened? Only because the hour is evil? OK, problem of the elves, not theirs.

Yes and this is why they were punished. They not only left at an evil time, but under a banned leader and the majority committed even great crimes.

That´s unfair, mortals don´t need to ask when they want to move away. Only because Nolor were looking for adventure and wanted a tiny bit of the land to rule does´t mean one of them becomes the next Morgoth. I see that ruling wish as trying to see what you are able to, if you can built something of your own. For us, in our society, the need to realize ones full potential is quite usual. So why not for the elves?

Again that is not true. The greatest works of the Noldor were performed in Valinor. That reasoning is how Morgoth came about. The Noldor did not except Manwe as ruler of the world. That apart they insulted the Valar in their own homes.

But there were the ones who were not guilty, so why should they return and not all followed Feanor, he may be the one who set all in motion, but most followed Fingolfin and the other princes, only because you go in the same direction doesn´t mean you follow the person.

Yes it does. They may have followed Fingolfin, but urged on by Feanor and due to the lies of Morgoth.

You can not blame only Morgoth, the Noldor had something in them what make them restless and in need for more knowlege, I´m sure they would have left at one point anyway, even without Morgoth or Feanor. Maybe it would have taken longer, for in one version Galadriel seems to be the first who had the wish to go to ME, sure there were others who wanted to see ME.

Leaving was fine, but it's the reason they wanted to leave. It was selfish and greedy. Similar to when the Numenoreans started returning to ME and conquering lands. It was the first sign that they were beginning to fall.
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I doubt Galadriel was the one thinking about it.

I doubt Galadriel had a authority problem, she just had an other idea in how she wants to live her life.

I know she but not because the Valar were the lords and ladies but becase there was nothing what she could achieve on her own, so she left.
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Pride mastered Galadriel and the other Noldor. They knew they had acted foolishly when they followed Feanor. They knew it was the wrong time Galadriel included, but they could not conquer their pride. That was their failing.

I repeat that it is no coincidence than the only descendant of Finwe, without the intense pride of others, Finarfin is able to return.

Her(Galadriel) pride was unwilling to return a defeated suppliant for pardon

People who question the circumstances (the Noldor) are not as easy to handle like the ones who are yes-men and yes-women (the vanyar). Pride is not always bad, it depends on what you do with your pride, Thingol became proud and so was killed, Galadriel was proud too, but she didn´t fell as hard as her kin, but still she is described as extemely proud. You can be proud but still do the right thing. Her kin had the problem that they were proud but they lacked the tactical insight Galadriel had. Fingolfin went to a suicide mission and arcieved nothing with it (OK I know he was wounded for all eternity but that doesn´t lead to his downfall) and Turgon rejected Ulmos advise.

Those are the same words that that Morgoth used. Pride always leads to a fall. The ones, who are humble always end up better. Finarfin faired better than his brothers, Tuor faired better than Turin, Aragorn faired better than Isildur, Faramir better than Boromir.

In the case of Galadriel we are told pride made her do the wrong thing. Hence she was banned.

It is not Galadriel alone, I constantly reference all the Princes/Ladies of the Noldor except Finarfin, because they all had the same weakness and were consequently all died (except Galadriel) who lost everything.