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The Ghastly Leprechaun
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Re: Gollum's Purpose/Motives (To Stir Things Up)
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> you haven't read the story well have you?<hr></blockquote>
Actually, I remember quite clearly looking up every single gollum quote in the book just to substantiate what I was saying.
The ring was trying to get back to Mordor, certainly, but it could never control Gollum fully - if you bothered to read some of the earlier posts (admittedly, very long) you'll find we went over this quite a bit.
Great post, gil. A few things I'd like to add:
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "Was there significance to the proximity of Isildur's journey to this evil fortress?"<hr></blockquote>
Perhaps, although Gandalf and several others do say (as Veasorol pointed out) that the Ring was making it's way back to Mordor (i.e. not Dol Guldor) - it may only have been a coincidence that it chose to wait until then, or it may have slipped off because it saw a chance to avenge it's creator's slain body, by betraying Isildur as he swam from orcs - the proximity (however minimal, if i may say so) probably had very little effect on the Ring's decision.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "While Sauron was not yet known to have been re-embodied, because the Ring was not destroyed, is it not possible that (however weak) Sauron had not already regained somewhat of his essence, and was able to inspire (if not direct) the ambush and command the treacherous behavior of the Ring?"<hr></blockquote>
While that is plausible, my argument was always that regardless of whether or not Sauron had regained his shape or essence, that the Ring (as an object with a will of it's own, i.e. a container of Sauron essence with it's own mind - it responds to it's master, but it's thought is always with it's creator)
as itself saw the chance and dropped off Isildur as he swam. If Sauron had any doing in this, then he did - but it is highly likely that the Ring knew it's creator would return, and knew that it would be going in the wrong direction if it stayed with Isildur, who was also responsible for taking the Ring away from it's creator - the Ring, perhaps out of anger or tact, then slipped off.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "Gollum was a wicked fellow to start with.<hr></blockquote>
Maybe, although we did give some debate to this before. I for one do not believe Gollum was always evil - his good side, Smeagol, was always hidden from view, only surfacing in a few moments, flashbacks to his past and his touching of Bilbo. Smeagol was, as LoTR quotes, interested in depths and dark places, and was hence probably not destined to become the mother of all good - but I do think it is unfair to call him wicked from the beginning. The Ring took his love for dark places and depths, his love for spying and sneaking, and corrupted it into something filled with hatred for light, life and itself. The Ring was the only thing that made Gollum wicked - it influenced his murder of Deagol, (as you said: "While the Ring inspired his initial murder of Deagol"
and everything else he did henceforth - gollum was a snitch to start with, but not wicked.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "He eventually gave the Ring up freely."<hr></blockquote>
Not true. Gandalf had some trouble getting someone as good-spirited and well-meant as Bilbo to give up his ring, which he at times called his Precious. The Ring had only just begun to set in on him if you like, only just begun to corrupt him - and that was why he felt pity, and confessed to his crimes. What is to say that Smeagol at this point of his ownership of the ring didn't pity as well? Perhaps LoTR never explicitly states this, but that does not mean it is possible. Remember, Smeagol's desires were fed by the hatred his family gave him, and he was outcasted. Bilbo was not.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "Was Gollum utterly Evil? No. Nor even was Sauron at the start. Nor was Morgoth created Evil."<hr></blockquote>
Precisely.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "Smeagol's choices made him into a Gollum. He could have chosen (at almost any time) a path of goodness and redemption. Indeed, through the Dead Marshes, he made such choices frequently.<hr></blockquote>
Smeagol did choose to steal, and to utilise the newfound power of the Ring - but this was not entirely his own choice. The Ring exerted enough force over him to control him (to a certain extent) for example, he could not live a day in Moria without seeing it and marvelling over it. This control, as we discover, bored the Ring until it eventually slipped off as it saw, even with this power over gollum, it was going nowhere.
Your point on Gollum not redeeming himself when Frodo gave him the chance was again fueled by his desire for the Ring, which was far stronger than Bilbo's when he had to give the Ring up and redeem himself - and his fear of Shelob, who he promised he would feed.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "While the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, it is the love/worship of self that is seed of evil."<hr></blockquote>
Gollum hated himself.
<blockquote>
Quote:<hr> "From Morgoth to Gollum, we see it starkly. From the grand scale to the subtle hints, Tolkien presents Evil in great contrast to Good.
The sacrificial love of others above self is the fruit of Good.
Tolkien shows us both clearly. <hr></blockquote>
Powerful words. Again, gollum hated himself, he despised himself and everything and everyone. However, I agree with you on saying that Evil is presented in great contrast to Good. It is, and it forms a very powerful contrast indeed.
I think I'd better refresh my Gollum knowledge and read the other 80 posts before I ramble on any more <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="
">
*edit: Thanks for bringing up the old topic, Veasorol <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">
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enep</p>
Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000041>enep</A> at: 6/22/01 5:26:14 am