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Old 01-08-2001, 12:39 PM   #15
Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
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lindil has just left Hobbiton.

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 164
Re: Literary devices

Maeglin would be very interesting.
As to a critique of the Epilouge, I would say that [not having the texts to compare w/. [I don't have any of the Lotr HoME books -but I have all others] and having read the epilouge a couple of times instores in the last few months-that it was very good. I would have left some of the folkier jests of Sam out [if I recall correctly JRRTdid] but the splicing of the main tale w/ the details of rose staying up on her b'day [I think that was in a secondary draft] and seeing the letter was great.
That is exactly the approach I am looking for myself w/ the Silm and 2nd /early 3 rd age tales/histories.
Epilouge is admittedly easier than Fall of Gondolin will be, and not just because of length , but because of stylistic discrepancies that exist even when factual oners do not.

I look forward to maeglin.

&quot;Admittedly; these are private copies done to include as much detail as
possible without causing textual problems.

It follows more closely the latter idea you present.&quot;

I will try and discern the sources -but any commentary you provide would be welcome

&quot; And to answer your hinted at question; yes, it can be done using
Myths Transformed.
what can Maeglin ? or all of it[Silm.]

&quot; The true question is; since you've seen what amounts to a preview of
the process, is it an acceptable approach to take for the project? &quot;
Epilouge is great , but it does not encounter the problems that incorporating BoLT material does or incorporating W. of Hurin in and and then returning to compressed Talesand coming up w/ the real death of Thingol.
I wouldn't be suprised if keeping some of CRRT's creations will not start to look attractive when we get there!

&quot; Does it sound forced? Does it sound contrived? Or does it flow
{hopefully in the style and tone that would have been used had a final
draft been reached)? These are the questions that need to be
This question is exactly where I think the rubber hits the road, if we want maximum detail and story w/ minimum stylistic distortion. I am interested in at least giving it a whirl and Tour and his coming/fall of Gondolin seems like a good one to cut our collective teeth on,although I am open to most anything . Tour is also good because it is a major story and if we can do it and have a full tale to show others we could conceivably get support for a larger team and because the BoLT Gondolin to my mind screams to follow up the UT tour w/ the changes we imagine JRRT might have made.It cannot be as Good as JRRT [ w/outresorting to incredibly high quality fanfiction] but it has the potential to be alot more satisfying than an abrupt UT halt and then a return to the 77 Silm
Anyone can splice and dice, but does it work without having
some type of overall sense of what is to be kept and what is to be lost?
I think the principles of {a} What was JRRT's last conception that {b} is fleshed out enough to insert into a tale w/ out serious diminuition of the existing stories and {c} does not contradict [here we have to decide] either {1} published LotR {2} other late ideas that have substantial story backing, {3} stuff I havn't forseen!

Mithadan , I have been thinking about the tale of years/annals idea and it brought up a few interesting dilemnas. First off do we see canon as ideas or texts, if it is stories[texts] in a chapter form as per 1977 then all the annal/toy idea gives us is a starting point for further texts and as I think has been demonstrated by many-some ideas could be canonical in that they are JRRT's final thoughts -but may be impossible to include in story/chapter form because JRRT never wrote more than outlines ,which while sufficient perhaps for a chronology is far too little to use as a basis for a literary canon.Sowe could end up ,easily I guess, w/ a canon in theory [annals/TOY] that could not be put into practice [full story form] h, however thet could be a springboard for Fanfiction.
this may indeed be to some the best option.

The other points I have been considering are twofold:
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 1&gt; that any writings , such as Epilouge/Maeglin/Tour and his coming/falll of Gondolin, etc. that we come up w/ will help a] generate interest and give people a tangible idea of what we are going for
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp b] it can provide future materials for a greater internet Tolkien Community moot of sorts - once a serious # of folks have seen and contributed /debated and digested the drafts/theories and possibilities. this may lead to the possibility of a canon or to canons .
&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp 2&gt; That ones predisposition to using the Myth'sTransformed [ hereafter MT in my posts -which gives me &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp and ide...] may be somewhat dependant on when one first encountered the Silm.
If you grew up in the 70's and the Silm was an amazing exstension of the ME universe and was seen as canonical for years until volume10 dispelled any feeling of stability and canonicity [although UT and HoME4/5 poked some serious holes] then MT is a radical reworking that endangers quite a bit of one's Middle-Earth world view.
------ for those whose Silmarillion exsposure was mixed in w/ HoMEat much the same time and who never went through a decade or more long acclamation to the 77' Silmarillion then Myth's transformed is I would guess much easier to countenance as it is simply the final [although a picture I saw in Artwork of JRRT which seemed very late [70 or 71?] showed the old sun travelling across the sky in a pre MT fashion] vision of the author and so simply the best candidate for a basis on which to build a canon .
which brings me to my final pondering , Our vision of a canon is going to be based for many of us on how JRRT's writingshave effected our souls, and this is more important I think than any detail or story or version being canonical or not or even debating a canon. If the process can help engender the same sense of wonder and the feeding of our souls and opening of our hearts that the stories do themselves then this is good and let us forge ahead . If instead of being a council of wise eldar and dunedain it becomes a finger of the claw of Mordor then we know we are on the wrong track, for one reason or another.


The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
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