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Tar Elenion · 03-24-2001, 11:20 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 73</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: the debate turns canonical

. [Moderator edit]... There are certainly many cases where sources conflict, and they must be carefully considered and choices made based both on what fits and what JRRT seems to have thought. Some versions presented are obviously rejected, but even so there are perfectly valid parts in the rejected story. An example can be made with the stories contained in the 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn', in Unfinished Tales. One version has Galadriel and Celeborn as the parents of Amroth and the founders of the Kingdom of Lorien. This version was rejected by JRRT. Amdir Malgalad was the father of Amroth and the founder of the Kingdom of Lorien. Yet this abandoned/rejected version gives us our most complete knowledge of the War of Elves and Sauron. Do we reject that perfectly valid information as well simply because JRRT rejected this version of the History of Galadriel and Celeborn?

Michael mentioned the failure of the 'Problem of Ros' above. The background on this is another debate I had with him at his old White Council forum. He had been arguing that Eldarin Kingships only passed with in the male line, that is from father to son and if there was no son it would pass to the nearest male kin of male descent (that is a kingship could not be inherited by the son of a daughter). I naturally pointed out Dior was the son of Luthien and he was Eluchil 'Thingol's heir'. He argued that the Dior being named Eluchil did not actually make him Thingol's heir, and that he did not inherit Doriath from Thingol, he started a whole new kingdom in Doriath that had nothing to do with Thingol. One of the passages I used was to counter him was from 'The Problem of Ros'. Dior says therein: "I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil."
. [Moderator edit]... Michael rejected it pointing out that JRRT noted on the text, 'most of this fails'. What he would not accept is that what failed in the text was not Dior being in fact the heir to Thingol (or much of the other valid information). What failed was JRRT's attempt to explain the etymology of 'ROS' in light of the fact that he had already defined it in the published LotR, and was forced to accept that definition.. [Moderator edit]....

This is why it is important to look at these things in their full context. .... [moderator edit]... ...the overall complexity of the Mythology.

Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/1/01 6:48:15 am

03-24-2001, 11:20 PM	#5
Tar Elenion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2000 Posts: 358	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit Posts: 73</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: the debate turns canonical . [Moderator edit]... There are certainly many cases where sources conflict, and they must be carefully considered and choices made based both on what fits and what JRRT seems to have thought. Some versions presented are obviously rejected, but even so there are perfectly valid parts in the rejected story. An example can be made with the stories contained in the 'History of Galadriel and Celeborn', in Unfinished Tales. One version has Galadriel and Celeborn as the parents of Amroth and the founders of the Kingdom of Lorien. This version was rejected by JRRT. Amdir Malgalad was the father of Amroth and the founder of the Kingdom of Lorien. Yet this abandoned/rejected version gives us our most complete knowledge of the War of Elves and Sauron. Do we reject that perfectly valid information as well simply because JRRT rejected this version of the History of Galadriel and Celeborn? Michael mentioned the failure of the 'Problem of Ros' above. The background on this is another debate I had with him at his old White Council forum. He had been arguing that Eldarin Kingships only passed with in the male line, that is from father to son and if there was no son it would pass to the nearest male kin of male descent (that is a kingship could not be inherited by the son of a daughter). I naturally pointed out Dior was the son of Luthien and he was Eluchil 'Thingol's heir'. He argued that the Dior being named Eluchil did not actually make him Thingol's heir, and that he did not inherit Doriath from Thingol, he started a whole new kingdom in Doriath that had nothing to do with Thingol. One of the passages I used was to counter him was from 'The Problem of Ros'. Dior says therein: "I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwe, the Eluchil." . [Moderator edit]... Michael rejected it pointing out that JRRT noted on the text, 'most of this fails'. What he would not accept is that what failed in the text was not Dior being in fact the heir to Thingol (or much of the other valid information). What failed was JRRT's attempt to explain the etymology of 'ROS' in light of the fact that he had already defined it in the published LotR, and was forced to accept that definition.. [Moderator edit].... This is why it is important to look at these things in their full context. .... [moderator edit]... ...the overall complexity of the Mythology. Tar-Elenion The High Elves had been in the hands of the gods praising and adoring Eru 'the One', Iluvatar the Father of All on the Mountain of Aman</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000076>lindil</A> at: 4/1/01 6:48:15 am __________________ Tar-Elenion