[Findegil]

After editing the text with all the changes we agreed upon here, I feel the lose of the passages from the Lay more haevily then before. And since not all members old and new have given us their oppinion about these additions I would like to restart the discussion on them. I give them here in full again for your convinience:

Therefore Húrin was brought before Morgoth, for Morgoth knew by his arts and his spies that Húrin had the friendship of the King of Gondolin; and {he sought to daunt him with his eyes. But Húrin could not yet be daunted, and he defied Morgoth. Therefore Morgoth had him chained and set in slow torment; but after a while he came to him,} NA-EX-25.02 <editorial bridge the Narn tells:
><Lay Said the dread Lord of Hell: __ 'Dauntless Hurin,
stout steel-handed, __ stands before me
yet quick a captive, __ as a coward might be!
Then knows he my name, __ or needs be told
what hope he has __ in the halls of iron? {80}5
The bale most bitter, __ Balrogs' torment!'

Then Húrin answered, __ Hithlum's chieftain -
his shining eyes __ with sheen of fire
in wrath were reddened: __ 'O ruinous one,
by fear unfettered __ I have fought thee long, {85}10
nor dread thee now, __ nor thy demon slaves,
fiends and phantoms, __ thou foe of NA-RG-00.01 {Gods}[the free]!'
His NA-EX-25.03 {dark}[doused] tresses, __ drenched and tangled,
that fell o'er his face __ he flung backward,
in the eye he looked __ of the evil Lord - {90}15
since that day of dread __ to dare his glance
has no mortal Man __ had might of soul.
There the mind of Húrin __ in a mist of dark
neath gaze unfathomed __ groped and foundered,
yet his heart yielded not __ nor his haughty pride. {95}20
But Lungorthin __ Lord of Balrogs
on the mouth smote him, __ and Morgoth smiled:
'Nay, fear when thou feelest, __ when the flames lick thee
and the whistling whips __ thy white body
and wilting flesh __ weal and torture!' {100}25
Then hung they helpless __ Húrin dauntless
in chains by fell __ enchantments forged
that with fiery anguish __ his flesh devoured,
yet loosed not lips __ locked in silence
to pray for pity. __ Thus prisoned saw he {105}30
on the sable walls __ the sultry glare
of far-off fires __ fiercely burning
down deep corridors __ and dark archways
in the blind abysses __ of those bottomless halls;
there with mourning mingled __ mighty tumult {110}35
the throb and thunder __ of the thudding forges'
brazen clangour; __ belched and spouted
flaming furnaces; __ there faces sad
through the glooms glided __ as the gloating Orcs
their captives herded __ under cruel lashes. {115}40
Many a hopeless glance __ on Húrin fell,
for his tearless torment __ many tears were spilled.

Lo! Morgoth remembered __ the mighty doom,
the weird of old, __ that the Elves in woe,
in ruin and wrack __ by the reckless hearts {120}45
of mortal Men __ should be meshed at last;
that treason alone __ of trusted friend
should master the magic __ whose mazes wrapped
the children of NA-RG-00.02 {Cor}[Tirion], __ cheating his purpose,
from defeat fending __ Fingolfin's son, {125}50
Turgon the terrible, __ and the troth-brethren
the sons of Fëanor, __ and secret, far,
homes hid darkly __ in the hoar forest
where Thingol was throned __ in the Thousand Caves.

Then the Lord of Hell __ lying-hearted {130}55
to where Hurin hung __ hastened swiftly,
and the Balrogs about him __ brazen-handed
with flails of flame __ and forged iron
there laughed as they looked __ on his lonely woe;
but {Bauglir}[Baugron] said: __ 'O bravest of Men, {135}60
'tis fate unfitting __ for thus fellhanded
warrior warfain __ that to worthless friends
his sword he should sell, __ who seek no more
to free him from fetters __ or his fall avenge.
While shrinking in the shadows __ they shake fearful {140}65
in the hungry hills __ hiding outcast
their league belying, __ lurking faithless,
he by evil lot __ in everlasting
dungeons droopeth __ doomed to torment
and anguish endless. __ That thy arms unchained {145}70
I had fainer far __ should a falchion keen
or axe with edge __ eager flaming
wield in warfare __ where the wind bloweth
the banners of battle - __ such a brand as might
in my sounding smithies __ on the smitten anvil {150}75
of glowing steel __ to glad thy soul
be forged and fashioned, __ yea, and fair harness
and mail unmatched - __ than that marred with flails
my mercy waiving __ thou shouldst moan enchained
neath the brazen Balrogs' __ burning scourges: {155}80
who art worthy to win __ reward and honour
as a captain of arms __ when cloven is mail
and shields are shorn, __ when they shake the hosts
of their foes like fire __ in fell onset.
Lo! receive my service; __ forswear hatred, {160}85
ancient enmity __ thus ill-counselled -
I am a mild master __ who remembers well
his servants' deeds. __ A sword of terror
thy hand should hold, __ and a high lordship
as {Bauglir}[Baugron]'s champion, __ chief of Balrogs, {165}90
to lead o'er the lands __ my loud armies,
whose royal array __ I already furnish;
on Turgon the troll __ (who turned to flight
and left thee alone, __ now leaguered fast
in waterless wastes __ and weary mountains) {170}95
my wrath to wreak, __ and on redhanded
NA-RG-00.03 {robber-Gnomes}[robber-Exiles], __ rebels, and roaming Elves,
that forlorn witless __ the Lord of the World
defy in their folly - __ they shall feel my might.
I will bid men unbind thee, __ and thy body comfort! {175}100
Go follow their footsteps __ with fire and steel,
with thy sword go search __ their secret dwellings;
when in triumph victorious __ thou returnest hither,
I have hoards unthought-of' - __ but Húrin Thalion
suffered no longer __ silent wordless; {180}105
through clenched teeth __ in clinging pain,
'O accursed king', __ cried unwavering,
'thy hopes build not __ so high, {Bauglir}[Baugron];
no tool am I __ for thy treasons vile,
who tryst nor troth __ ever true holdest- {185}110
seek traitors elsewhere.'

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Then returned answer
Morgoth amazed __ his mood hiding:
'Nay, madness holds thee; __ thy mind wanders;
my measureless hoards __ are mountains high {190}115
in places secret __ piled uncounted
agelong unopened; __ NA-RG-00.04 {Elfin}[Elven] silver
and gold in the gloom __ there glister pale;
the gems and jewels __ once jealous-warded
in the mansions of the NA-RG-00.045{Gods}[Valar], __ who mourn them yet, {195}120
are mine, and a meed __ I will mete thee thence
of wealth to glut __ the Worm of Greed{.},'>
and he offered him his choice to go free whither he would{, or to receive power and rank as the greatest of Morgoth's captains}, if he would but reveal where Turgon had his stronghold, and aught else that he knew of the King's counsels. ...

... and though they were now aged they were valiant, and they knew well the lands, for they had journeyed often through Beleriand in former times. Thus by fate and courage they passed over the Shadowy Mountains, and coming down into the Vale of Sirion they passed into the Forest of Brethil.{; and at last, weary and haggard, they reached the confines of Doriath. But there they became bewildered, and were enmeshed in the mazes of the Queen, and wandered lost amid the pathless trees, until all their food was spent. There they came near to death, for winter came cold from the North; but not so light was Túrin's doom. Even as they lay in despair they heard a horn sounded. Beleg the Strongbow was hunting in that region, for he dwelt ever upon the marches of Doriath, and he was the greatest woodsman of those days. He heard their cries and came to them, and when he had given them food and drink he learned their names and whence they came, and he was filled with wonder and pity.}
NA-EX-25.05 <Lay The ways were weary __ and woven with deceit
o'er the hills of Hithlum __ to the hidden kingdom
deep in the darkness __ of Doriath's forest,
and never ere now __ for need or wonder
had children of Men __ chosen that pathway, {350}5
save Beren the brave __ who bounds knew not
to his wandering feet __ nor feared the woods
or fells or forest __ or frozen mountain,
and few had followed __ his feet after.
There was told to Túrin __ that tale by NA-RG-00.05 {Halog}[Grithnir] {355}10
that in the Lay of Leithian, __ Release from Bonds,
in linked words __ has long been woven,
of Beren {Ermabwed}[Erchamion], __ the boldhearted;
how Lúthien the lissom __ he loved of yore
in the enchanted forest __ chained with wonder - {360}15
Tinúviel he named her, __ than nightingale
more sweet her voice, _ as veiled in soft
and wavering wisps __ of woven dusk
shot with starlight, __ with shining eyes
she danced like dreams __ of drifting sheen, {365}20
pale-twinkling pearls __ in pools of darkness;
how for love of Lúthien __ he left the woods
on that quest perilous __ men quail to tell,
thrust by Thingol __ o'er the thirst and terror
of the Lands of Mourning; __ of Lúthien's tresses, {370}25
and Melian's magic, __ and the marvellous deeds
that after happened __ in Angband's halls,
and the NA-EX-25.06 {flight}[fear] o'er fell __ and forest pathless
when Carcharoth __ the cruel-fanged,
the wolf-warden __ of the Woeful Gates, {375}30
whose vitals fire __ devoured in torment
NA-EX-25.07 {them}[there] hunted howling __ (the hand of Beren
he had bitten from the wrist __ where that brave one held
the nameless wonder, __ the NA-RG-00.06 {Gnome}[Elven]-crystal
where light living __ was locked enchanted, {380}35
all hue's essence. __ His heart was eaten,
and the woods were filled __ with wild madness
in his dreadful torment, __ and Doriath's trees
did shudder darkly __ in the shrieking glens);
how the hound of NA-RG-00.07 {Hithlum}[Valinor], __ Huan wolf-bane, {385}40
to the hunt hasted __ to the help of Thingol,
and as dawn came dimly __ in Doriath's woods
was the slayer slain, __ but silent lay
there Beren bleeding __ nigh brought to death,
till the lips of Lúthien __ in love's despair {390}45
awoke him to words, __ ere he winged afar
to the long awaiting; __ thence Lúthien won him,
the Elf-maiden, __ and the arts of Melian,
her mother Mablui __ of the moonlit hand,
that they dwell for ever __ in days ageless {395}50
and the grass greys not __ in the green forest
where East or West __ they ever wander.
Then a song he made them __ for sorrow's lightening,
a sudden sweetness __ in the silent wood,
that is 'Light as Leaf __ on Linden' called, {400}55
whose music of mirth __ and mourning blended
yet in hearts does echo. __ This did NA-RG-00.08 {Halog}[the henchman] sing them:

The grass was very long and thin,
...
__ Since Beren came to Doriath.

This for hearts' uplifting __ did NA-RG-00.09 {Halog}[the henchman] sing them {485}130
as the frowning fortress __ of the forest clasped them
...
Without bread or water __ with bleeding feet
and fainting strength __ in the forest straying
their death they deemed it __ to die forwandered,
when they heard a horn __ that hooted afar
and dogs baying{.}, __ NA-EX-25.08 <Narn {but not so light was Túrin's doom}but Túrin’s dome being 155
not so lightly brought. __ > Lo! the dreary bents {510}
and hushed hollows __ to the hunt wakened,
and echoes answered __ to eager tongues,
...
'Who are ye?' he asked. __ 'Outlaws, maybe,
hiding, hunted, __ by hatred dogged?' 170

'Nay, for famine and thirst __ we faint,' said NA-RG-00.10{Halog}[Grithnir], {525}
'wayworn and wildered, __ and wot not the road.
...
Then Beleg bade them __ be blithe, saying:
NA-RG-00.11 ‘{The Gods have}[Good you] guided[ the boy,] __ {you} to {good}[grand] keeping;
I have heard of the house __ of Húrin undaunted, 185
and who hath not heard __ of the hills of slain, {540}
of {Nirnaith Ornoth}[Nirnaeth Arnoediad], __ Unnumbered Tears!
To that war I went NA-EX-25.09{not, __ yet}[, __ and still} wage a feud
with the Orcs unending, __ whom mine arrows fleeting
smite oft unseen __ swift and deadly. 190
I am the hunter Beleg __ of the hidden people; {545}
the forest is my NA-EX-25.11{father}[fort] __ and the fells my home.'>
And he looked with liking upon Túrin, for he had the beauty of his mother and the eyes of his father, and he was sturdy and strong.
‘What boon would you have of King Thingol?’ said Beleg to the boy.
‘I would be one of his knights, to ride against Morgoth, and avenge my father,’ said Túrin.
‘That may well be, when the years have increased you,’ said Beleg. ‘For though you are yet small you have the makings of a valiant man, worthy to be a son of Húrin the Steadfast, if that were possible.’ For the name of Húrin was held in honour in all the lands of the Elves.
NA-EX-25.12 <Lay Then he bade them drink __ from his belt drawing
a flask of leather __ full-filled with wine
that is bruised from the berries __ of the burning South -
the NA-RG-00.12{Gnome-folk}[Noldor] know it, __ from Nogrod the Dwarves {540}
by long ways lead it __ to the lands of the North 5
for the Elves in exile __ who by evil fate
the vine-clad valleys __ now view no more
in the land of NA-RG-00.13{Gods}[good]. __ There was lit gladly
a fire, with flames __ that flared and spluttered, {545}
...
long leagues to cover. __ Now led by ways
devious winding __ through the dark woodland, {560}
by slade and slope __ and swampy thicket, 25
through lonely days, __ long-dragging nights,
they fared unfaltering, __ and their friend they blessed,
who but for Beleg __ had been baffled utterly
by the magic mazes __ of Melian the Queen.> {570}
{Therefore }Beleg gladly became the guide of the wanderers, and he led them to a lodge where he dwelt at that time with other hunters, and there they were housed while a messenger went to Menegroth. ...

{Then Túrin bowed before them, and took his leave. And soon after he put on the Dragon-helm, and took arms, and went away to the north-marches, and was joined to the elven-warriors who there waged unceasing war upon the Orcs and all servants and creatures of Morgoth. Thus while yet scarcely out of his boyhood his strength and courage were proved; and remembering the wrongs of his kin he was ever forward in deeds of daring, and he received many wounds by spear or arrow or the crooked blades of the Orcs.
But his doom delivered him from death; and word ran through the woods, and was heard far beyond Doriath, that the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was seen again. {Then many wondered, saying: ‘Can the spirit any man return from death; or has Húrin of Hithlum escaped indeed from the pits of Hell?’
One only was mightier in arms among the march-wardens of Thingol at that time than Túrin, and that was Beleg Cúthalion; and Beleg and Túrin were companions in every peril, and walked far and wide in the wild woods together.}
NA-EX-27.04<Lay Thus his prowess was proven __ and his praise was noised
and beyond his years __ he was yielded honour,
for by him was holden __ the hand of ruin {755}
from Thingol's folk, __ and NA-RG-00.14 {Thû}[Gorthaur] feared him,
and wide wandered __ the word of Túrin: 5
'Lo! we deemed as dead __ the dragon of the North,
but high o'er the host __ its head uprises,
NA-EX-27.05 its {wings are}worth is spread! __ Who has waked this spirit {760}
and the flame kindled __ of its fiery jaws?
Or is Húrin of Hithlum __ from Hell broken?' 10
NA-RG-00.15 {And Thû}[Gorthaur] who was throned __ as thane mightiest
neath Morgoth {Bauglir}[Baugron], __ whom that master bade
'go ravage the realm __ of the robber Thingol {765}
and mar the magic __ of Melian the Queen',
even {Thu}[that Lord] feared him, __ and his thanes trembled. 15

One only was there __ in war greater,
more high in honour __ in the hearts of the Elves
than Túrin son of Húrin, __ tower of Hithlum, {770}
even the hunter Beleg __ of the hidden people,
whose NA-EX-27.06 {father}[fort] was the forest __ and the fells his home; 20
to bend whose bow, __ Balthronding named,
that the black yewtree __ once bore of yore,
had none the might; __ unmatched in knowledge {775}
of the woods' secrets __ and the weary hills.
He was leader beloved __ of the light companies 25
all garbed in grey __ and green and brown,
the archers arrowfleet __ with eyes piercing,
the scouts that scoured __ scorning danger {780}
afar o'er the fells __ their foemen's lair,
and tales and tidings __ timely won them 30
of camps and councils, __ of comings and goings,
all the movements of the might __ of Morgoth {Bauglir}[Baugron].
Thus Túrin, who trusted __ to targe and sword, {785}
who was fain of fighting __ with foes well seen,
where shining swords __ made sheen of fire, 35
and his corslet-clad __ comrades-in-arms
were snared seldom __ and smote unlooked-for.

Then the fame of the fights __ on the far marches {790}
was carried to the courts __ of the king of Doriath,
and tales of Túrin __ were told in his halls, 40
of the bond and brotherhood __ of Beleg the ageless
with the blackhaired boy __ from the beaten people.
Then the king called them __ to come before him {795}
did Orc-raids lessen __ in the outer lands
ever and often __ unasked to hasten, 45
to rest them and revel __ and to raise awhile
in songs and lays __ and sweet music
the memory of the mirth __ ere the moon was old, {800}
when the mountains were young __ in the morning of the world.>
Thus three years passed, and in that time Túrin came seldom to Thingol's halls; ...

I think still that in these passages we have a lot details that are still valid as part of the legendarium and that were later lost.

For commentaries too the needed changes see my post #23.
For the discussion the relevant postings are:
post #32, post #33, post #34, post #35, post #36, post #72, post #73, post #75, post #76, post #77, post #78, post #79, post #80, post #81, post #82, post #83 and post #84

Respectfuly
Findegil