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Old 03-16-2018, 04:02 PM   #39
R.R.J Tolkien
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R.R.J Tolkien has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zigûr View Post
Yes, I always understood the situation as being that Manwë called upon Eru because it would have been inappropriate for the Valar to have fought the Númenóreans, even though they could have annihilated them easily. Surely the whole point of Sauron encouraging the Númenóreans to attack Aman was in the hope that the Valar would wipe them out.

EDIT: Letter 156 more or less states that the Valar not fighting the Númenóreans was a matter of law, not ability: "The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion - for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them, with any ’divine’ display of the powers they held over the physical world."
I dont disagree fully with what you have said about Manwe. But weather he steeped aside or not does not take away from what Tolkien called the mightiest navy to ever gather in ME and its potential to ruin valinor itself. Neither does Sauron's plan of causing them to fight and i am sure he would wish to wipe them both out.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Zigûr View Post
EDIT 2: However, Letter 131 states that the invasion was a source of "real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself)". This, however, suggests to me that the Númenóreans could have caused a lot of destruction and disaster – killing Elves and despoiling holy places, for instance – before they were defeated. I don't think it implies that they could have defeated the Valar themselves, merely that Sauron may have informed them of "weak points" in Aman that they could have attacked and damaged.
While the valar stood by? I would suggest valinor itself was in peril, that included the entire area and those who dwelled there. Noldor elves sure did a great job in the first age against balrogs and morgoth in battle, if the numenoreans could best them, it seems indeed valinor was in peril.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zigûr View Post
EDIT 3: Akallabêth also heavily implies that Sauron expected the Númenóreans to lose, as he had been "hoping only for the death of the Númenóreans and the defeat of their proud king."


In letters 153 Tolkien said the characters can be wrong in their statements and dont represent Tolkien. In fact his example was the maiar Gandalf being wrong in a statement. No reason Sauron could not be. He made the rings as an attempt to control ME, that did not work out so well.
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“I am in fact a Hobbit (in all but size). I like gardens, trees and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food...I am fond of mushrooms.” -J.R.R Tolkien
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