[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

It precisely 'refutes the religious aspect' (if I follow you). It does not 'refute' the spiritual aspect though. There is a spiritual aspect to the world & stories, & to the characters. What there isn't, it seems to me, is any 'religious' aspect - Tolkien specifically denies the presence of organised religion.

I disagree; I don't see in Tolkien the separation between myth, religion and spirituality - all of them are united. He has no problem in calling various Christian themes as myths and no problem either in calling myths a path to the Truth (thus, Imo, equivalating them, to a large extent, to religion). I will reinforce my previous quote from letter #89 that the gospels are the greatest Fairy-story

Originally Posted by Epilogue, On fairy-stories

The Gospels contain a fairy-story, or a story of a larger kind which embraces all the essence of fairy-stories. They contain many marvels—peculiarly artistic, beautiful, and moving: “mythical” in their perfect, self-contained significance; and among the marvels is the greatest and most complete conceivable eucatastrophe.... This story begins and ends in joy. It has pre-eminently the “inner consistency of reality.” There is no tale ever told that men would rather find was true, and none which so many sceptical men have accepted as true on its own merits. For the Art of it has the supremely convincing tone of Primary Art, that is, of Creation. To reject it leads either to sadness or to wrath.

More importantly:

Originally Posted by He had been inside his language, Part Four, Tollkien biograpjy by H. Carpenter

Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming a ‘sub-creator’ and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall.

Of what fall does Tolkien talk about that myths takes us beyond? It seems to me, beyond doubt, that it is the Christian Fall, one thing which we cannot ignore when considering the core of his mythology.

One does not have to consider Tolkien a hypocrite in order to consider them to be inconclusive as to his intentions in this regard.

So, if you are not saying that he is a hypocrite, then you are saying that someone else than the author is more trustworthy to identify his intention??

I have no problem with you doing either, as long as you do not seek to impose your conclusion on me by insisting that the Secret Fire must necessarily be equated with the Holy Spirit in order to properly understand the book, that this is part of the "correct" meaning of the book.

This is a debate, nobody can "impose" anything. As far as I am concerned, Tolkien statement that the secret fire is the christian Holy Fire makes perfect sense to me; the story does achieve the "inner consistency" required for it to be a veritable, successful, subcreation.

In the context of LotR, Orcs are presented as (irredeemably?) evil beings and no moral issue is raised concerning their slaughter (unlike, for example, with the dead Haradrim solider). Are treecutters and motorcycle riders really to be considered in the same way? Tolkien is free to do so, but this does not form any part of my understanding of LotR’s meaning. Orcs have no real life equivalent as far as I am concerned.

I really think that the treecutting business reffers to the New Shadow, where kids following a satanist cult start cutting down trees without any reason - them showing "most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good ". I don't know about the motorcycle riders being orcs, but fetishism of machines is a mark of evil to him, that is the least I can say. As far as orcs not being treated (or at least expected to be treated) appropiately, I disagree; Tolkien stated in Myths Transformed that orcs were supposed to be treated with mercy, [though it didn't always happen so during wars - then again, he identified orcs in Japan, Germany and even England who would behave truly evil].

He invites readers to find applicability within LotR.

Err, I am not aware of such a statement; sure, he dislikes forced suspension of disbelief, but what he strives to achieve is to successfully reflect the Truth (the Christian one, I add) - that being the mark of a veritable fairy-story.