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Old 06-04-2004, 05:06 PM   #57
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Posted by Madhros about VE-11:
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Why is it necessary to move that sentence up.
If we wouldn't move it we would have:
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Beneath his white banner marched also the Vanyar, the Fair-elves, the people of Ingw; and among them were also those of the Noldor of old who had never departed from Valinor, and Ingwion son of Ingw and< [Finrafin] son of Finw> {was}were their chiefs.
That is possible but I think the other version is much better.

About VE-13.01: Well, to say the truth, I did in deed expect that you found much of that passages to riscy. But still it I am glad too have done it. Now I will try to brake it down to acceptable level.
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Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath
Of the march of the host of Enw to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves in Valinor.<AB2 {Here the} The host of [Enw] was seen shining upon the sea afar, and the noise of his trumpets rang over the waves and echoed in the western woods. Thereafter was fought the battle of [Eglarest], where [Ingwion] son of Ingw, prince of all the Elves, made a landing, and drove the Orcs from the shore.> But at the last Enw came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of{ his} arms, for the host of the {Gods}[Valar] were arrayed in forms of Valinor, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath.{ There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not. The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth. The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.} And it is said that all that were left of the three Houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought for Enw; and they were avenged upon the Orcs in those days for Baragund and Barahir, Galion and Gundor, Huor and Hrin, and many others of their lords; <QII and to them were joined some of the Men of Hithlum who repenting of their evil servitude did deeds of valour against the Orcs;> and so were fulfilled in part the words of Ulmo, for by [Erendil] son of Tuor help was brought unto the Elves, and by the swords of Men they were strengthened on the fields of war. But a great part of the sons of Men, whether of the people of Uldor or others newcome out of the East, marched with the Enemy; and the Elves do not forget it.<AB2 Great war came now into Beleriand, and [Enw] drove the Orcs and Balrogs before him; and he camped beside Sirion, and his tents were as snow upon the field>. <FG {Did not even after the days of Tuor Noldorin and his Eldar come}[the Noldor came to Nan-Tathren]{there seeking for Dor Lomin and the hidden river and the caverns of the Gnomes'-imprisonment; yet thus nigh to their quest's end were like to abandon it?} Indeed sleeping and {dancing here}camping there{, and making fair music of river sounds and the murmur of grass, and weaving rich fabrics of gossamer and the feathers of winged insects}, they were whelmed by the goblins sped by [Morgoth] from the [Ironhills] and {Noldorin}[only a few] made bare escape thence.><E& A Army {of Tulkas }/camped /at the Pools of Twilight, the><FG great heaths and morasses above the Land of Willows, {and Voronwe knew not those regions. Now here}[where] goes Sirion a very great way under earth, diving at the great cavern of the Tumultuous Winds, but running clear again above the {Pools of Twilight}[Lands of Willows], even {where}there {Tulkas' after}[they] fought with {Melko's self}[Morgoths Balrogs]>then <AB2 [Enw] crossed Sirion and the hosts of Morgoth were driven as leaves, and the Balrogs were utterly destroyed><BT, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth>,< AB1 and Morgoth[s army] fled to Angband pursued by the hosts of [Enw].><BT There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, so that Dor-na-Fauglith could not contain it, and all the North was aflame with war. But it availed not.{} The uncounted legions of the Orcs perished like straw in a great fire, or were swept like shrivelled leaves before a burning wind. Few remained to trouble the world for long years after.>
Then, seeing that his hosts were overthrown
Posted by Aiwendil about VE-08
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That's plausible. But I think that particularly the uncertainty found in QS demands that she be removed from "Earendil". At any rate, since retaining Earendil's encounter with her requires a more or less fan-fictional justification, we ought to leave it out.
I am do not agree with that as you might have already thought. Why I am at al lose to scip Erendils encounter with Ungoliante is the greeting of Erendil by Enw: "Hail Erendil, radiant star, messenger most fair! Hail thou bearer of light before the Sun and Moon, looked for that comest unawares, the longed for that comest beyond hope! Hail, splendour of the children of the world, slayer of the Dark! Satr of the sunset, hail! Hail, herald of the morn!" This was never changed as fare as I can see, but it is clearly a text of less value than remark in QS.

Posted by Aiwendil:
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Now in this section, LQ2 is the final text. But as far as LQ2 is uncertain (which is a matter to be dealt with in its own right), the final authoritative text must be QS. But even if we were to consider LQ wholly spurious, QS is still (apparently) later than AB2. So if we make additions from AB2, they are additions of a fundamentally different kind from the FoG additions - they are not from a later text, serving to correct obselete points. They are in fact from an earlier text.
The addition are from a earlier text, but they serve the same purpose than did the addition done by FoG as a basic text.

Posted by Aiwendil:
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However - I'm still unsure. One other point is that in the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta, part of the reason for not making additions was that we seemed to be considering these the veritable "Ainulindale" and "Valaquenta". Clearly, we are not doing the same for the "Quenta Silmarillion".
I did not like that treatment of the "Valaquenta" and the "Ainulindale" as "Middle-Earth internal texts". That does not mean that I did not like the result of the editing.

Posted by Aiwendil:
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As for Bilbo's poem: I must say that I am against using pieces of it, for two reasons (aside from the general concern discussed above). First, I'm not so sure about using text from a complete and distinct work, like The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings. Second, we have no assurance at all of the accuracy of Bilbo's poem.
I did use parts in which the song corosponded to the earlier Versions of Erendils voyage. I did use the poem, becuase the text of it was useable than what we find in LT2.

Posted by Aiwendil:
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As for the sleeper in the Tower of Pearl: it's certainly plausible to retain this element, though I think we need to carefully consider whether we are entirely justified in doing so.

"The Happy Mariners" has some problems, I think. First, the "orient fire in many a hoarded spark" found in the "waters of the rumoured sun" doesn't seem to make any sense with respect to the established geography/cosmology. The other major problem is "Gondobar". It is difficult to understand why the name is used here, but in any case it is certain that for our purposes it refers to Gondolin.
Agreed in all points! For the first point we should look for more info about the timeline of writing. About the "hoarded sparks" I also marked that, but with out knowledge the cosmology told in LT1 (as a read of the 1940 version would certainly not have), you could take it as a pictorially discription of a unknown treasure. "Gondobar" is indeed a heavy problem, for which I have no solution ad hand. But what a discussion could be be made for.

Respectfully
Findegil
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