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Old 03-06-2019, 08:55 AM   #22
denethorthefirst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
Sauron reclaims the Ring. But... what's happened outside the Black Gate? Tolkien seems to imply that the Armies of the West were on the verge of victory when the Ring was destroyed, and there's been time between for them to achieve it. That means, far from all being dead, Aragorn and Gandalf are now pressing through the Black Gate - and Aragorn is carrying the sword of Elendil.
I think, far from a quick defeat for the West, we're looking at a second Siege of Mordor. The Ring doesn't make Sauron all-powerful, or else he wouldn't have been defeated so often in the Second Age.
[...]
Well, he's not Morgoth. He doesn't want to burn Gondor - he wants to rule it.
[...] Gondor, under Steward Faramir, is probably forced into some version of Sauron's offer made at the Black Gate; I think Faramir would probably accept it for the good of the people, now that all hope of military resistance is over.
[...]
He's finally gotten rid of the elves. What's his next play?
Valinor. Ultimately, after all his own grievances, Sauron still wants to get back at the Valar for their humiliation of his master. That's why he turned the Numenoreans, Saruman, the Noldor by way of Ring-making. It is his ultimate obsession.

hS
It was clearly implied that the Battle at the Morannon was a suicide mission that had no chance to succeed without the destruction of the One Ring. Saurons forces outnumbered the forces of Gondor and Rohan at least 10 to 1 (actual quote: "ten times and more than ten times", so Saurons forces ranged from at least 60 000 to maybe over 100 000). But that was only a fraction of Mordors strength and even if Aragorns army had managed to miraculously defeat the army at the Morannon, they still would not have been able to break the Morannon (not to mention all the other fortifications at Udun). They lacked the siege equipment, the necessary manpower, food, water, supplies, logistical support, etc. If Gollum had not fallen into the fire, Sauron would have absolutely crushed Aragorns army, that much is clear. I do not know how you came to the conclusion that Gondor was somehow "winning" when the One Ring was destroyed. The opposite was the case, they were losing, completely surrounded and totally overwhelmed, defeat was only a matter of time.

It also is not quite clear how "benevolent" Saurons rule would actually be. Tolkien wrote that Sauron (although his initial motivation was a desire for order) was eventually infected by Morgtoths nihilism. I wonder how much, if any, of Saurons initial motivation had survived by the time of the War of the Ring. By that time Sauron had been defeated multiple times, his body killed, the rebuilding took several hundred years, his initial plans had completely failed, his home had been utterly destroyed and razed to the ground. I imagine that, by the time of the War of the Ring, burning rage and ego were the only things left that drove him. He wanted to win just because, to destroy his enemies, and not to achieve some goal or some order.

I also do not believe that Faramir would have accepted some kind of deal from Mordor. That would completely contradict Gondors whole raison d'etre and the ethos of the Dunedain. Faramir was a faithful Numenorean. In my opinion he would rather die than strike some kind of deal with Sauron. In the event of Frodos failure Gondor would have gone down fighting. Sauron would need to conquer every last fishing village, every last mountain hideout, every last fort, because I do not believe that Gondor would ever surrender. In my opinion you would need to change the complete culture and history of the place for that to happen. You do not fight a war for over 3000 years only to surrender. And when did Gondor ever surrender? Or Arnor for that matter?

I do not think that Sauron was able to somehow tolerate the existence of a numenorean realm, no matter how subservient. I do not think that Sauron was thinking rationally in regards to his old enemies. We should not take the offer from the Mouth of Sauron at face value, it was not honest or offered in good faith, it was a ploy to sow confusion and to divide the West (i.e. psychological warfare) - if that offer sounds too good to be true, thats because it was.

As for Saurons ultimate "goal" - i do not think that he had any by that time. He just wanted to rule Middle-earth. Thats it. Why did he want to rule? Because! The West opposed him, and that was reason enough to destroy them. That was his sole remaining purpose. When I think about Sauron during the War of the Ring, I am always reminded of OŽBriens speech about power from Orwells 1984:

""The real power, the power we have to fight for night and day, is not power over things, but over men." [O'Brien] paused, and for a moment assumed again his air of a schoolmaster questioning a promising pupil: "How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?"
Winston thought. "By making him suffer," he said.
"Exactly. By making him suffer. Obedience is not enough. Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own? Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation. Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together again in new shapes of your own choosing.
[...]
Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grown not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain. The old civilizations claimed that they were founded on love or justice. Ours is founded upon hatred. In our world there will be no emotions except fear, rage, triumph, and self-abasement. Everything else we shall destroy — everything.
[...]
We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty towards the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science.
There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always — do not forget this, Winston — always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.
We control life, Winston, at all its levels. You are imagining that there is something called human nature which will be outraged by what we do and will turn against us. But we create human nature. Men are infinitely malleable.""

And Sauron certainly did not want avenge Morgoth, or try to bring him back from the Void (to submit again under the rule of his former master?). Sauron was an egotist, he wanted to rule for himself and be worshipped as a God-King in his own right. Tolkien clearly wrote that Sauron regarded Melkor as a failure. Sauron was not some romantic idealist and he did not harbor any remaining feelings of loyalty or affection towards his former master. Sauron did not even participate in the War of Wrath - that war lasted over 40 years, not once did Sauron feel the obligation to aid his master in his existential struggle for survival. So much for Saurons "loyalty". A returning Melkor would be a threat to Saurons rule, something to avoid at all costs.

I guess that Sauron also knew that he had no hope at all to match the power of the Valar. He could not even reach them, so whats the point? A futile attack to honour his former master? Not very likely. In my opinion, if Sauron had won, he would be content with Arda and carefully avoid any provocation or conflict with Valinor. Sauron was an egotist, but he was not insane. He saw what the Valar did to Beleriand and how they dealt with Numenor.

Last edited by denethorthefirst; 03-07-2019 at 11:43 AM.
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