[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Lal

Which would mean that evil is indeed inbuilt by Eru and is not a result of Melkor's rebellion! In fact Melkor would not be necessary whatsoever as evil would still be manifest in Arda simply by dint of it being created by Eru.

While I believe that the moral possibility of evil is necessary in order to have true free will, Melkor is not necessary as an agent of evil. With free will, there will be plenty of agents around. However, him not present, or at least he not corrupted, would mean that the greatest power that ever entered Ea wholly will not bent almost each and every spiritual and physical entity towards evil. Most such encounters are beyond one's power to resist, as Tolkien commented for example on Frodo's struggle against the corruption of the ring; that sort of thing you just can't fight ["There exists the possibility of being placed in positions beyond one's power."] On the other hand, there is also the general case of Gollum, who doesn't want the good path, no matter the circumstances [I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'".]. This later case would still appear in Arda Unmarred, and rightly so, I almost dare say; for this is indeed the test of one's faith and standing; Aule's initial dwarves would have been the most marvelous stones in the world, if it weren't for Eru breathing true life and sentience on them.

Originally Posted by Lal

I interpret it as Pride. He is driven by his own desire.

I think you are playing with words here. There is difference between pride, and desire and gift; his special gifts are specifically stated, he was naturally gifted. I doubt that anyone, no matter his level of motivation, could have achieved what he did, Artistically speaking. In Ea, the fire of one's spirit is a real spiritual trait, not just a figurative manner of speech; esspecially with elves, this was consuming their body, for one thing. I would very much link this fire to the imperishable flame, the creative aspect of Eru, or the living essence of creation if you will. Pride is something more.... wordly; anyone can have it. I would say the positive aspect of pride is nobility, acknowledgment of one's special connection with the creator, prohibiting thus one from falling; the negative, much more common, is reffering ourselves not to the creator, but to others, in which case.... bring on the fight, competition, envy, superiority, etc. Feanor enjoyed both the fire in its creative aspect, and the pride, which brought about the downfall, not his Art.

Originally Posted by Lal

That depends if it is. For the majority it is not.

Then again, if we talk about the elves, one of their most important qualities concern sub-creation, the Art as defined previously. This type of Art, and these sub-creative qualities, have the most fertile ground on Valinor, from most, if not all, points of view. The inhabitants of M-E enjoy sub-creativeness too, but how much time do they have to develop it, what with all the wars, departing of the most gifted, the elves, and lack of continuity of culture, due to social decay or social extinsion.

Originally Posted by Lal

This is profound and sad, and the sense of urgency, of having just One Chance to get it right, that drives mortals is beyond the understanding of Elves.

I don't deny that Men represent a full half (if not more) of the problem of Death, treated by Tolkien in his work. It should also be noted that Men more often that not deserve to be looked upon not with admiration, but with sadness; they do not make the most of it. They are too caught up, for better or for worst, most of the times for the worst - the grip of Melkor is too strong on them.

Originally Posted by Of the beginning of days, Silmarillion

Yet the Elves believe that Men are often a grief to Manwe, who knows most of the mind of Iluvatar; for it seems to the Elves that Men resemble Melkor most of all the Ainur, although he has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him.

True enough, Eru also said that "these too in their time shall find that all that they do redounds at the end only to the glory of my work"; yet Tolkien commented:

Originally Posted by Letter #181

Their 'damnability' [of those who persist in wickedness] is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge.

Originally Posted by davem

No - its like saying the Police are not being 'fair' or reasonable if they decide to deal with the knife-wielding criminal by employing tactical nukes to take out half the State the criminal is in.

I disagree; the numenoreans were not wielding a knife, they had "the greatest of all armadas"; they were able to wreak havoc in Valinor and they subjugated a good part of Middle Earth, enslaving, torturing and sacrificing people to Melkor. Maybe they were worst under Sauron's corruption than Men were under Melkor's.

Originally Posted by davem

If impersonal nature (the 'Dragon') had brought down the Numenoreans it would have brought home Man's insignificance & his ultimate tragedy far more profoundly than Eru's hissy fit.

I doubt that for such a profoundly corrupted people this dragon would have been more than an accident - if it lacked conscious will behind it. They would have gone at it again, while continuing to oppress the Children of Eru in the name of Melkor.

Originally Posted by davem

Eru psychopathically over-reacts in the case of Numenor, because while the Numenoreans may have disobeyed the Valar they were no threat.

To disprove with quote:

Originally Posted by Letter #131

Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Numenoreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed.

Originally Posted by davem

And one suspects it would not have been necessary to include the event at all in the final redaction of the Legendarium, in which Tolkien attempted to make Arda conform to 'current' scientific thinking. The Sun & stars were to pre-exist the earth, which would inevitably have had to be spherical from the start - hence, no need for a re-shaping of the world, so no requirement for Eru to wreak such devastation.

I doubt that the changing of the world was the main reason for the Akallabeth. I actually have serious problems picturing Arda flat, what with the skies and what not (was all Ea a tube with Arda at the bottom? Was it a sphere with Arda on the inner surface? Was it an ever widening cylinder, with Arda at its "lowest", smallest circumference? Someone help me out .)