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Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer
Regarding the dwarves and dale-as I understand it Rhunish forces were on the verge of victory at Erebor and then word reached them of the destruction of Sauron and then the defenders sallied and defeated the demoralized besiegers.
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I'm not sure you're right about Erebor. Certainly the Mountain was under siege, but how well could they withstand that? I'm remembering that Moria held against Sauron's entire army during his conquest of Eregion; could a fully-fortified Erebor not stand up to a rabble out of the east? I agree that they couldn't break free, but they might well just stay locked away there.
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Originally Posted by Zigûr
Hmm. I don't think Sauron would have cared by that point about Morgoth's defeat by the Valar:
"He probably deluded himself with the notion that the Valar (including Melkor) having failed, Eru had simply abandoned Eä, or at any rate Arda, and would not concern himself with it any more. It would appear that he interpreted the 'change of the world' at the Downfall of Númenor, when Aman was removed from the physical world, in this sense: Valar (and Elves) were removed from effective control, and Men under God's curse and wrath." (Myths Transformed)
I think he thought the Valar had already lost before the Third Age began and that Morgoth had proved to be as weak as the rest. My interpretation is that Sauron eventually considered Morgoth and Manwë to both be fools who had equally failed to produce order at all costs, which was the only goal he considered worthwhile and the objective he deluded himself into thinking all powerful people aspired to exclusively.
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This is an interesting thought. Then what
is Sauron's goal by the end of the Third Age? Not destruction - the fact that he has empires under his sway in the south and east proves that. Just ruling everything? I think the answer hinges on this exchange:
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Originally Posted by The Black Gate Opens
‘These are the terms,’ said the Messenger, and smiled as he eyed them one by one. ‘The rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies shall withdraw at once beyond the Anduin, first taking oaths never again to assail Sauron the Great in arms, open or secret. All lands east of Anduin shall be Sauron’s for ever, solely. West of the Anduin as far as the Misty Mountains and the Gap of Rohan shall be tributary to Mordor, and men there shall bear no weapons, but shall have leave to govern their own affairs. But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron’s, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.’
Looking in the Messenger’s eyes they read his thought. He was to be that lieutenant, and gather all that remained of the West under his sway; he would be their tyrant and they his slaves.
But Gandalf said: ‘This is much to demand for the delivery of one servant: that your Master should receive in exchange what he must else fight many a war to gain! Or has the field of Gondor destroyed his hope in war, so that he falls to haggling? And if indeed we rated this prisoner so high, what surety have we that Sauron the Base Master of Treachery, will keep his part? Where is this prisoner? Let him be brought forth and yielded to us, and then we will consider these demands.’
It seemed then to Gandalf, intent, watching him as a man engaged in fencing with a deadly foe, that for the taking of a breath the Messenger was at a loss; yet swiftly he laughed again.
‘Do not bandy words in your insolence with the Mouth of Sauron!’ he cried. ‘Surety you crave! Sauron gives none. If you sue for his clemency you must first do his bidding. These are his terms. Take them or leave them!’
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- What did Sauron hope to achieve with this deal? Was what he asked for actually his end goal, or was it just a step on the way to outright conquest down the line?
- Why did he make the offer in the first place? If he felt he could destroy the army, then them accepting this offer would actually be a step down from the total victory he was on the verge of achieving.
Actually... I'm forgetting here that Sauron at this point thinks
Aragorn has the One Ring. He may well be afraid that a battle will lead to his orcs being taken from him or something. Hrm. Still, I think the first question stands.
hS