The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Half-orcs and Uruk-hai, a hypothesis

Man-of-the-Wold · 11-02-2002, 03:04 PM

At the end of this reply is some language that is also part of my own tangent about Uruk-Hai in reply to that long troll thread on the Olog-Hai, for which their are obvious parallels.

The perspective I might add is to remember that Tolkien is trying to give a realistic sense of various veiwpoints, suspicions and assumptions, as they apply to various people, and that we really don't know all the facts, but only what people like the Gondorians, Treebeard, Westfold-men (Gamling), and others observe and conclude. In some cases, they may be reporting only myths within the larger myth.

What little the Wise really might be sure of, is given to us in the Appendices to the LotR.

Orcs clearly come in various sizes and types, depending on their race and geography, although perhaps without the individual diversity that characterizes Ents, and I suggest, Trolls.

Obviously, from Morgoth on down, the Dark Powers (and wannabee Saruman) have a great interest in trying to make Orcs more useful. As Morgoth discovers early on in the War of the Great Jewels, and is later demonstrated, Orcs by themselves are not of much effect unless they are massed in extremely overwhelming numbers.

So, the appearance of the term "Uruk-Hai"
with the taking of Osgiliath, and of elite, uniform groups of large, sun-enduring orcs, is not necessarily a clear-cut event, but perhaps only the crystalization and unleashing of a much older trend.

Hence, the Uruk-Hais' isolation and development by Sauron (through sorcery or other means) was not an overnight thing, and at least as captains among lesser orcs, he could have been cultivating their forerunners for some time. Also, Saruman's own types of Uruk-Hai could be something else apart, to which he has added special spells or genetic manipulation. Quite possibly, the Orcs who would call themselves Uruk-Hai varied from place to place, and group to group.

As for the exact relationship of so-called Uruk-Hai to the half-orcs, goblin-men and so forth, as attributed to Saruman, or what those references really mean, it is hard to do more than speculate.

Nevertheless, in "The Hobbit," with Tolkien's rather endearing, anti-technology philosophy, he seems to suggest that "goblin-ness" survived into modern-like times, and was the origin of great killing machines, in which the goblins take such delight. Perhaps, orc-men are how this would be possible.

In the course of the LotR, I think Tolkien is trying to avoid giving us too precise of a system for categorizing any evil creature and so forth. Rather, he is giving us a flavor of how everyday Men, Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, and so forth labeled and reacted to these creatures, in a way that is not necessarily consistent, except that it is clouded by natural fear and legend/rumor.

Similarly, we find "Uruk-Hai" used in reference to developments out of Sauron's fastnesses, as well as breeding efforts by Saruman, such that it is hard to say who steals, uses or expands on whose evil work, not to mention the jumble of terms about half-orcs, goblin-men, hobgoblins and so forth, which are never at all clarified or fully distinguished from "Uruk-Hai," except perhaps in HoME.

I would also note how the chiefs of the Orc squads from Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul that Sam overhears seem to consider themselves to be Uruk-Hai, but they hark back to some time that they both personally remember, which seems to be none other than the Dark Age when Sauron held sway over most of Middle-Earth during the Second Age!

So, that even though the term Uruk-Hai is applied to large, non-daylight challenged Orcs only in the latter part of the Third Age, when they are first recorded as being grouped together, they may have been based on orc-breeds going back much farther in time.

Perhaps, Sauron took existing orcs out of the refuse of the War of Wrath and increasingly endowed some of them with special strengths, which then Saruman enhanced with, or used as part of, breeding experiments with men and women. There may have been Uruk-Hai, and then there were Uruk-Hai.

Notably, Grishnakh is large and strong, if squat, but not a Uruk-Hai, but also of much greater cunning and rank in the greater scheme of things than Saruman’s group of seemingly rather new-sprung Uruk-Hai.

[ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ]

11-02-2002, 03:04 PM	#18
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	At the end of this reply is some language that is also part of my own tangent about Uruk-Hai in reply to that long troll thread on the Olog-Hai, for which their are obvious parallels. The perspective I might add is to remember that Tolkien is trying to give a realistic sense of various veiwpoints, suspicions and assumptions, as they apply to various people, and that we really don't know all the facts, but only what people like the Gondorians, Treebeard, Westfold-men (Gamling), and others observe and conclude. In some cases, they may be reporting only myths within the larger myth. What little the Wise really might be sure of, is given to us in the Appendices to the LotR. Orcs clearly come in various sizes and types, depending on their race and geography, although perhaps without the individual diversity that characterizes Ents, and I suggest, Trolls. Obviously, from Morgoth on down, the Dark Powers (and wannabee Saruman) have a great interest in trying to make Orcs more useful. As Morgoth discovers early on in the War of the Great Jewels, and is later demonstrated, Orcs by themselves are not of much effect unless they are massed in extremely overwhelming numbers. So, the appearance of the term "Uruk-Hai" with the taking of Osgiliath, and of elite, uniform groups of large, sun-enduring orcs, is not necessarily a clear-cut event, but perhaps only the crystalization and unleashing of a much older trend. Hence, the Uruk-Hais' isolation and development by Sauron (through sorcery or other means) was not an overnight thing, and at least as captains among lesser orcs, he could have been cultivating their forerunners for some time. Also, Saruman's own types of Uruk-Hai could be something else apart, to which he has added special spells or genetic manipulation. Quite possibly, the Orcs who would call themselves Uruk-Hai varied from place to place, and group to group. As for the exact relationship of so-called Uruk-Hai to the half-orcs, goblin-men and so forth, as attributed to Saruman, or what those references really mean, it is hard to do more than speculate. Nevertheless, in "The Hobbit," with Tolkien's rather endearing, anti-technology philosophy, he seems to suggest that "goblin-ness" survived into modern-like times, and was the origin of great killing machines, in which the goblins take such delight. Perhaps, orc-men are how this would be possible. In the course of the LotR, I think Tolkien is trying to avoid giving us too precise of a system for categorizing any evil creature and so forth. Rather, he is giving us a flavor of how everyday Men, Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, and so forth labeled and reacted to these creatures, in a way that is not necessarily consistent, except that it is clouded by natural fear and legend/rumor. Similarly, we find "Uruk-Hai" used in reference to developments out of Sauron's fastnesses, as well as breeding efforts by Saruman, such that it is hard to say who steals, uses or expands on whose evil work, not to mention the jumble of terms about half-orcs, goblin-men, hobgoblins and so forth, which are never at all clarified or fully distinguished from "Uruk-Hai," except perhaps in HoME. I would also note how the chiefs of the Orc squads from Cirith Ungol and Minas Morgul that Sam overhears seem to consider themselves to be Uruk-Hai, but they hark back to some time that they both personally remember, which seems to be none other than the Dark Age when Sauron held sway over most of Middle-Earth during the Second Age! So, that even though the term Uruk-Hai is applied to large, non-daylight challenged Orcs only in the latter part of the Third Age, when they are first recorded as being grouped together, they may have been based on orc-breeds going back much farther in time. Perhaps, Sauron took existing orcs out of the refuse of the War of Wrath and increasingly endowed some of them with special strengths, which then Saruman enhanced with, or used as part of, breeding experiments with men and women. There may have been Uruk-Hai, and then there were Uruk-Hai. Notably, Grishnakh is large and strong, if squat, but not a Uruk-Hai, but also of much greater cunning and rank in the greater scheme of things than Saruman’s group of seemingly rather new-sprung Uruk-Hai. [ November 02, 2002: Message edited by: Man-of-the-Wold ] __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.