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Old 09-07-2003, 11:11 AM   #34
Findegil
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Sting

I feel that since I have brought this problem back to the discussion, I have to bring up the facts in the way that we can lock at them without a great deal of work for everyone. So I collected again all texts were the monsters / dragons are mentioned. If anybody is only interested in the conclusion I found by doing this, go to the end of the post. I will set out my opinions there in short.

I will start with the later text since in view of the principles it is more valuable in deciding what course we have to take in the case of the monsters.
In the section 16 of the Q30 dragons are only two times mentioned:
Quote:
At last, and Earendel was then seven years of age, Morgoth was ready, and he loosed upon Gondolin his Orcs and his Balrogs and his serpents; and of these, dragons of many and dire shapes were now devised for the taking of the city. ...
...
... Then Tuor and Idril led such remnants of the folk of Gondolin as they could gather in the confusion of the burning down a secret way that Idril had let prepare in the days of her foreboding. This was not yet complete, but its issue was already far beyond the walls and in the North of the plain where the mountains were long distant from Amon Gwareth. Those who would not come with them, but fled to the old Way of Escape that led into the gorge of Sirion, were caught and destroyed by a dragon that Morgoth had sent to watch that gate, being apprised of it by Meglin.
The second mentioning does not add any information that could help in our actual question.
But the first must be analysed with care. I will add some words to it just to make my reading of it clearer:
Quote:
At last, and Earendel was then seven years of age, Morgoth was ready, and he loosed upon Gondolin his Orcs and his Balrogs and his serpents; and of these [his serpents], dragons [not all his serpents] of many and dire shapes were new devised for the taking of the city.
I am not totally sure if the quote most be read in that way, but it clearly can be read thus.
What do we make out of it:
- there were serpents of Morgoth in the attack (that obvious)
- some of these were dragons newly devised for that battle
- that counterpart of that "some" is that there were others that were NOT new devised.

Let us turn know to the basic text of our editing:
FG-D-01 Deleting from Maeglin's advice to Morgoth.
Quote:
From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.
That quote can not be interpreted by its one so I will discuss it with the next one.

FG-D-02 Devising of the dragons.
Quote:
Yet these years are filled by M[orgoth] in the utmost ferment of labour, and all the thrall-folk of the Noldo[r] must dig unceasingly for metals while M[orgoth] sitteth and deviseth fires and calleth flames and smokes to come from the lower heats, nor does he suffer any of the Noldo[r] to stray ever a foot from their place of bondage. Then on a time M[orgoth] assembled all his most cunning smiths and sorcerers, and of iron and flame they wrought a host of monsters such as have only at that time been seen and shall not again be till the Great End. Some were all of iron so cunningly linked that they might flow like slow rivers of metal or coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them, and those were filled in their innermost depths with the grimmest of Or[k]s with scimitars and spears; others of bronze and copper were given hearts and spirits of blazing fire, and they blasted all that stood before them with the terror of their snorting or trampled whatso escaped the ardour of their breath; yet others were creatures of pure flame that writhed like ropes of molten metal, and they brought to ruin whatever fabric they came nigh, and iron and stone melted before them and became as water, and {upon}[with] them {rode}[moved] the Balrogs {in hundreds}; and these were the most dire of all those monsters which M[orgoth] devised against Gondolin.
Here are the devising of the dragons is described in more detail then in Q30. In respect of what is done Maeglins advice becomes clearer: "wealth of metals refers to the iron, bronze and copper used for the fabrication of the serpents. "power of fire" was clearly used for the "creatures of pure flame" and also for the "hearts of fire" for the second kind. "overcreep the Encircling Hills" can refer to all three kinds but "leaping ... in flame must refer to the later two kinds.
As I argued in my last post, the animal-fire-dragons are missing from that account. But we could deal with that, since we have here a description only of the new devising not of the complete muster of Morgoths forces.
It is still true that we have three types of "new devised dragons" and for easy reference it is good to remember our types:
Type 1: creations of iron, filled with orks -> clearly very mechanical
Type 2: creations of bronze and copper filled with hearts of fire that -> they do resemble animal fire dragons but in the tale they were often named together with the Type 1 so that they were clearly intended mechanical at first.
Type 3: creations of pure fire ever seen in connection with Balrogs -> clearly even in The Tale not meant mechanical but more demon like. Here the description is very unlike any dragon, but later we will find them often only named "dragons of fire" or simply "fire-drakes", so that some confusion is to be expected.

FG-A-05
Quote:
§48 ... /Q30 At last, and {Eärendel}[Eärendil] was then seven years of age, Morgoth was ready, and he loosed upon Gondolin his {Orcs}[Orks] and his Balrogs and his serpents; and of these, dragons of many and dire shapes {were} new devised for the taking of the city. The host of Morgoth came over the Northern hills where the height was greatest and the watch less vigilant, and it came at night at time of festival./
Here we inserted the muster of Morgoths hosts from Q30. And that does prove good, for as I read the sentence we have know added the animal-dragons of "the brood of Glaurung". For further reference I will call this "normal" dragons Type 4.

Quote:
§50 ... and a ruddy glow shone upon their faces and gleamed about the polished surfaces of their accoutrement. Behold, all the hills to the north were ablaze, and it was as if rivers of fire ran down the slopes that led to the plain of Tumladen, and folk might already feel the heat thereof.
"as if rivers of fire ran down the slopes" does very well fit with the description of the type 3 monsters (and add some small hint to the theory I brought out earlier, that these type 3 are similar to the streams of fire seen in the Dagor Bargollach and the Nirneach Arnoediad).

Quote:
§55 ... Yet Idril wept, for much had she cherished in her heart the fair city and her goodly house, and the love of Tuor and herself that had dwelt therein; but now she saw its destroying nigh at hand, and feared that her contriving would fail against this overwhelming might of the terror of the serpents.
§56 It was now four hours still from middle night, and the sky was red in the north and in the east and west; and those serpents of iron had reached the levels of Tumladen, and those fiery ones were among the lowest slopes of the hills, so that the guards were taken ' and set in evil torment by the Balrogs that scoured all about, saving only to the furthest south{ where was Cirith Thoronath the Cleft of Eagles}.
"Serpents" in §55 is ambiguous and might refer to all types. It is interesting that the "serpents of iron" (type 1) are faster than "those fiery ones" (type 3). But "those fiery" is so ambiguous that it could mean each type from 2, 3 or 4 or all of them.

Quote:
§ 62 And now came the Monsters across the valley [and there was no stay in the advance of the foe until they were beneath the very walls of Gondolin] and the white towers of Gondolin reddened before them [and Gondolin was beleaguered without hope] FG-A-07 ; but the stoutest were in dread seeing those dragons of fire and those serpents of bronze and iron FG-D-04 that fare already about the hill of the city; and they shot unavailing arrows at them. Then is there a cry of hope, for behold, the snakes of fire may not climb the hill for its steepness and for its glassiness, and by reason of the quenching waters that fall upon its sides; yet they lie about its feet and a vast steam arises where the streams of Amon Gwared and the flames of the serpents drive together.…
"dragons / snakes of fire" clearly refers to type 3, "serpents of bronze and iron" to type 2 and 1. The problem is only one of clarity since "dragons / snakes of fire" could not easily be understood as type 4 so that it doesn't forces us to change it.

FG-D-05 Flexible dragons pressed into service.
Quote:
§63 But now Gothmog lord of Balrogs, captain of the hosts of {Melko} [Morgoth], took counsel and gathered all his things of iron that could coil themselves around and above all obstacles before them. These he bade pile themselves before the northern gate; and behold, their great spires reached even to its threshold and thrust at the towers and bastions about it, and by reason of the exceeding heaviness of their bodies those gates fell, and great was the noise thereof: yet the most of the walls around them still stood firm. FG-D-06 Then the engines and the catapults of the king poured darts and boulders and molten metals on those ruthless beasts, and their hollow bellies clanged beneath the buffeting, yet it availed not for they might not be broken, and the fires rolled off them. Then were the topmost opened about their middles, and an innumerable host of the {Orcs} [Orks], the goblins of hatred, poured therefrom into the breach; ...
These indicates type 1 as mechanical, which is okay, when we accept mechanical monster at all.

FG-B-02 Balrogs shoot arrows of fire.
Quote:
§69 ... yet a worse matter was it that {a company} [some] of those demons climbed upon the coils of the serpents of iron and thence loosed unceasingly from their bows and slings till a fire began to burn in the city to the back of the main army of the defenders.
Type 1 again with out any further info.

FG-B-03 Rog's men attack
Quote:
§70 ... but the men of Rog leapt even upon the coils of the serpents and came at those Balrogs and smote them grievously, ...
§71 Then Gothmog Lord of Balrogs gathers all his demons [and troops] that were about the city and ordered them thus: a number made for the folk of the Hammer and gave before them, but the greater company rushing upon the flank contrived to get to their backs, higher upon the coils of the drakes and nearer to the gates, so that Rog might not win back save with great slaughter among his folk. ... FG-B-03.05 Then that house of the Hammer fared about smiting and hewing the astonied bands of Morgoth till they were hemmed at the last by an overwhelming force of the Orcs{ and the Balrogs}, and a fire-drake was loosed upon them.
"coils of the serpents/of the drakes" does more or less clearly refer to type 1, so we need no change her. As said before the fire-drake in the last sentence is in the original a type 3 monster, but when not altered it is understood as a type 4 and that isn't bad in my view.

FG-D-07a The great-footed dragons prepare to attack Gondolin.
Quote:
§74 Now then the plan that they made was to hold what they had won, while those serpents of bronze and with great feet for trampling climbed slowly over those of iron, and reaching the walls there opened a breach wherethrough the Balrogs might {ride upon} [come with] the dragons of flame: yet they knew this must be done with speed, for the heats of those drakes lasted not for ever, and might only be plenished from the wells of fire that Melko had made in the fastness of his own land.
Here we have again the types 1 to 3 all in one place. "Dragons of flame" is in my view okay, since it could not be so easily confused with type 4 dragons.

FG-D-08a Breaking of the Walls. and FG-B-05 Entrance into the city
Quote:
§76 ... But there behold a quaking and a trampling, for the dragons labour mightily at beating a path up Amon Gwared and at casting down the walls of the city; and already there is a gap therein and a confusion of masonry where the ward-towers have fallen in ruin. Bands of the Swallow and of the Arch of Heaven there fight bitterly amid the wreck or contest the walls to east and west with the foe; but even as Tuor comes nigh driving the Orcs, one of those brazen snakes heaves against the {western} [eastern]/why was this change done?/ wall and a great mass of it shakes and falls, and behind comes a creature of fire and Balrogs [and monsters]/what kind of monsters are meant by this addition and for what was it done?/ {upon} [with] it. Flames gust from the jaws of that worm and folk wither before it, and the wings of the helm of Tuor are blackened, but he stands and gathers about him his guard and all of the Arch and Swallow he can find, whereas on his right Ecthelion rallies the men of the Fountain of the South.
§77 Now the {Orcs} [Orks] again take heart from the coming of the drakes, and they mingle with the Balrogs that pour about the breach, and they assail the {Gondothlim} [Gondolindrim] grievously.
The first "dragons" is ambiguous and can stand for any type or all types, even including type 4. The "brazen snake" is clearly type 2, "creature of fire" is again clearly type 3. When type 3 is interpreted as "streams of fire" the "flames gust from the jaws of that worm" could refer only to the "brazen snake" of the sentence before, since type 3 has no "jaws". "drakes" in the last sentence is again ambiguous.

Quote:
§ 78 But so it is that few cannot fight always against the many, and Ecthelion's left arm got a sore rent from a whip of the Balrog's and his shield fell to earth even as {that} [a] FG-B-06.05b dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls. Then Ecthelion must lean on Tuor, and Tuor might not leave him, though the very feet of the trampling beast were upon them, and they were like to be overborne: but Tuor hewed at a foot of the creature so that flame spouted forth, and that serpent screamed, lashing with its tail; and many of both Orcs and Noldor got their death therefrom. Now Tuor gathered his might and lifted Ecthelion, and amid a remnant of the folk got thereunder and escaped the drake; yet dire was the killing of men that beast had wrought, and the Gondolindrim were sorely shaken.
Here we have a troublesome point in the narrative. I don't understand the change from "that" to "a" in FG-B-06.05b. What ever it was made for, isn't that a clear case of a change for clarity? "dragon of fire" in the first sentence is a type 3. But that brings in some confusion since "the very feet of the trampling beast" and "a foot of the creature" most refer to the bronze serpent that had ruined the wall, since the description of the type 3 monsters does not allow any feet. The following "drake" and "beast" must refer therefore to the same type dragon that Tour had hurt. In this paragraph we get some confusion between the first mentioning of a type 3 and than a fight against a type 2. Since the safest way to bring in clarity is elimination of one dragon I suppose that could go:
Quote:
§ 78 But so it is that few cannot fight always against the many, and Ecthelion's left arm got a sore rent from a whip of the Balrog's and his shield fell to earth{ even as {that} [a] FG-B-06.05b dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls}. Then ...
FG-D-09 Imprisonment of the Noldor.
Quote:
§ 79 Thus it was that Tuor son of Huor gave before the foe, fighting as he yielded ground, and bore from that battle Ecthelion of the Fountain, but the drakes and the foemen held half the city and all the north of it. Thence marauding bands fared about the streets and did much ransacking, or slew in the dark men and women and children, and many, if occasion let, they bound and led back and flung in the iron chambers amid the dragons of iron, that they might drag them afterward to be thralls of {Melko} [Morgoth].
"Drakes and foeman" refer to all the troops of Morgoth and so to each type of the dragons. In the second sentence we have again type 1 established as mechanical.

Quote:
§ 83 Now these had sustained a terrible conflict in the Great Market to the east of the city, where a force of Orcs {led by Balrogs} came on them at unawares FG-B-07 as they marched by a circuitous way to the fight about the gate. This they did to surprise the foe upon his left flank, but were themselves ambuscaded; there fought they bitterly for hours till a fire-drake new-come from the breach overwhelmed them, and Glorfindel cut his way out very hardly and with few men; but that place with its stores and its goodly things of fine workmanship was a waste of flames.
§ 84 ... so that many of them were trapped in the flames or sank before the breath of the serpent that revelled there.
I think that the "fire-drake" and "breath of the serpent" was meant in the original to be a type 3. But as the text stands now it sounds like a type 4. That isn't to bad since we have not many mentions of type 4. So I say let is as it is.

Quote:
§ 86 But now the {men} [host] FG-B-07.05 of Morgoth have assembled their forces, and seven dragons of fire are come with Orcs about them {and Balrogs upon them}[and a Balrog] down all the ways FG-B-08 from north, east, and west, seeking the Square of the King. Then there was carnage at the barriers, and Egalmoth and Tuor went from place to place of the defence, but Ecthelion lay by the fountain; and that stand was the most stubborn-valiant that is remembered in all the songs or in any tale. Yet at long last a drake bursts the barrier to the north -- and there had once been the issue of the Alley of Roses and a fair place to see or to walk in, but now there is but a lane of blackness and it is filled with noise.
§ 87 Tuor stood then in the way of that beast, but was sundered from Egalmoth, and they pressed him backward even to the centre of the square nigh the fountain.
Type 3 but dubious so it is understandable either way and can stand.

Quote:
§ 88 ... There seeing the wavering of the enemy by reason of the dread of the fall of Gothmog the marshal of the hosts, the royal house laid on and the king came down in splendour among them and hewed with them, that they swept again much of the square, {and of the Balrogs slew even two score,} which was a great prowess indeed FG-B-09: but greater still did they do, for they hemmed in one of the Fire-drakes for all his flaming, and forced him into the very waters of the fountain that he perished therein. ...
§ 89 Then dread fell on all for the doom of the fountain, and the square was filled with mists of scalding heat and blinding fogs, and the people of the royal house were killed therein by heat and by the foe and by the serpents and by one another ...
Here we come to one of the nail proof. In The Tale this might have been the type 3 monster ridden into the square by Gothmog. But now it is called "one of the fire-drakes" and that suggests at least as I have interpreted it since a type 4. And indeed "hemmed in ... for all his flaming, and forced him into the very water of the fountain" reminds me very much of the fight of the dwarves of Belegost against Glaurung in the Nirneath and of Smaug who in his attack upon Laketown in The Hobbit did know "that the cold water of the lake was mightier than he". (The fountain of the King was more an equilibrium to that dragon, as it seems.) So I am at a loss to decide what to do with these "fire-drake". But since the project leans against changes for clarity, and only such one could be made here, we must let the reader decide for himself what to make of it. The serpents in the next paragraph are ambiguous and should be so.

Quote:
§ 94 Then some of the hugest of the drakes came on and glared in the fog, and he must perforce bid the company to go at a run, fighting on the left at haphazard; ...
"glared in the fog" suggested type 3 for me but that was based mainly on the German translation which is "glühten" [would have been more accurate for glowing]. I realise now that it can mean type 2 and 4 as well and even a type 1 if you will.

Quote:
§ 94 ... Lo! a drake was coiled even on the very steps of the palace and defiled their whiteness; but swarms of the Orcs ransacked within and dragged forth forgotten women and children or slew men that fought alone. Glingal was {withered} [melted] FG-C-04 to the stock and Belthil was blackened utterly, and the king's tower was beset. High up could they descry the form of the king, but about the base a serpent of iron spouting flame lashed and rowed with his tail, and Balrogs were round him; and there was the king's house in great anguish, and dread cries carried up to the watchers. ...
Again a detail that is new and surprising: The "serpents of iron" could "spout flame"! I am again at a lose, what we should do here. I am inclined to deny the possibility of iron serpents that spout flame. But that goes for the old Tale as it does for our version. If this is a slip of the pen it has survived the revision from Tour A to Tour B and the proofread before the reading to the Exeter College (or was produced in one of these). So we could let it stand. (Even if it makes the type 1 to a kind of "eierlegender Woll-Milch-Sau" - sorry that's a German joke and means one animal that does produce every beneficial product of animal farming.)

Quote:
§ 96 ... Behold, the tower leapt into a flame and in a stab of fire it fell, for the dragons crushed the base of it and all who stood there. ...
Ambiguous "dragons" again that could mean any type.

Quote:
§ 102 ... but when that folk had descended the stairway to a level with the valley the heat grew to a torment for the fire of the dragons that were about the city; and they were indeed nigh, for the delving was there at no great depth in the earth. Boulders were loosened by the tremors of the ground and falling crushed many, and fumes were in the air so that their torches and lanterns went out.
Most naturally the dragons here are interpreted as type 3.

FG-D-10 At the gate.
Quote:
§ 103 ... Fire-drakes are about it and monsters of iron fare in and out of its gates, ...
In The Tale "fire-drakes" were type 3 but here we could led them go as type 4 as well. "monsters of iron" refers to type 1 and makes here sense since what we see is the plundering of the city, the iron serpents go in to be filled with booty and fare out again with it. Also I like to add that the change of the Thoron Sîr to the north fits here much better: Only here at the north gate was a ramp of iron serpents over which any of the dragons could reach a gate. So the scene is moved from one that has some incredibility’s to one that is more logical.

Quote:
§ 105 ... but fled to the old Way of Escape that led into the gorge of Sirion and opened it anew, were caught and destroyed by a dragon that Morgoth had sent to watch that gate ...
We are not told what dragon this was in Q30.

Quote:
§ 120 ... and then both Tuor and Voronwë saw that they were not far from the outer issue of old of the Way of Escape, and were once more in that deep dale of alders. Here were all the bushes trampled and the trees burnt, and the dale-wall scarred with flame, and they wept, for they thought they knew the fate of those who sundered aforetime from them at the tunnel-mouth.
Here no dragon is named, but it showes that in § 105 it was a fiery one. What does not mean anything since even type 1 could "spout flame" as we have learned. But since this dragon was not in the attack I would see him as type 4. No change needed of course.

Quote:
§ 121 Now they journeyed down that river but were again in fear from Morgoth, and fought affrays with his Orc-bands and were in peril from the wolfriders, but his firedrakes sought not at them, both for the great exhaustion of their fires in the taking of Gondolin, and the increasing power of Ulmo as the river grew.
The "exhaustion of their fires" makes this firedrakes clearly a reference to type 3 dragons. But the word it self was in most previous cases interpreted as type 4. For clarity a change is desirable here but for no other reason, and since it is still understandable we can let it stand.


Conclusion: Aiwendil is right in his opinion that we could let the text stand as it is. That will produce 4 types of monsters of which 2 are mechanical and 3 are a new devised for the attack on Gondolin. Some of the original mentions would be change in the meaning and some will be obscure, so that in some places I at least feel a strong desire for "changes for clarity" (see especially §§ 76, 78, 94 and 121).
Any other proposal to deal with the dragons would force more changes. So I think we have found a kind of “kings way” in this matter.

Respectfully
Findegil
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