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Old 01-18-2005, 09:53 AM   #71
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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This discussion of the structure of the “Translation from the Elvish“ has been idle for a long long time. But since we have finish five chapters (if we count them as they are presented here) and have already missed at least on chapter-break as they are supposed here, I think it is time to discuss the chapter structure a bit more seriously.
I will concentrate here on the first part of the “Translation of the Elvish” which will be the narrative of the ages up to the defeat of Morgoth. As an aside point I will suggest here a Title for this volume: “The Elder Days”
I would deal with volumes not in the way Lindil did suggest. There is nothing that forces us to make them all the same length. Thus I would suggest that two volumes of Tales and one with Essays and such things would work best:
Thus:
Translations from the Elvish
volume 1: The Elder Days
volume 2: Númenor and the History of the North-West of Middle-Earth
volume 3: The Lore of the Wise
The title are only rough working title and need refinement.

But my main point is the structure of what I suggested above as volume 1. The first two chapters (Ainilindale and Valaquenta) are clear and, I think, need no further discussion. They are in a way independent of the rest. A further part of it will be filled by the “Later Quenta Silmarillion”. In other places it will be a mixture of the “Great Tales” (Narn, Later Tuor, Wanderings of Húrin), the “Lost Tales” (Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, The Tale of the Nauglafring), the Lays of Beleriand (Lay of Leithian, Lay of Eärendel, Lay of the Children of Húrin), parts of the “Annals”-tradition and of the “Quenta”-tradition. In some other discussions it was decided that what we produce is not supposed to be any bock that had an feigned internal reality. Thus we acknowledge the fact that neither the produce version of “Tour and the Fall of Gondolin” nor the Versions of the “Narn” or the “Lay of Leithian” that are jet to come will fit in any form of the “Quenta Silmarillion”.
With this said we could feel free to make up our own chapter-structure were ever we would like to do that. This freedom we will us at least in the aforementioned Tales, that do not fit in the “Quenta”. But what is about the rest? And how do we link the “Great Tales” into our work?
As we have already experienced in more then one point we have hard breaks in our narrative. I foresee with out any doubt at least one further very hard break of that kind. These are inevitable and even when we try our best to smooth them we can not conceal them. As will be seen easily the hardest breaks appear in places were the other sources break of and we are left with the “Quenta”-tradition as the fullest account of the remaining part of the narrative (the end of the “Lay of Leithian” will be a perfect example).
As jet it was suggested to order the Tales as good as possible in chronological order. I agree with this in general, but in detail I doubt that this is the way to go. It would mean to break such tales as “Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin” which we have just pasted together with much travail, into pieces again (as it is normal when one has used a good glue, the breakinglines will be in different places, thus what we get would not only be a heap of shreds but a heap of shreds that are themself already glued fragments).
I think that it is much better if we would follow the “Quenta Silmarillion” in the placing of the “Tales” as entities and acknowledge the fact that what we present is an amalgament of different sources. I would go even so fare as to name the parts which are driven from the “Quenta” (or to take a more external view, the parts were our produced narrative could be supposed to be a part of the “Later Quenta Silmarillion”) and to name the parts of the “Quenta” that are replaced by other material.
Before I give away my own idea about the structure of the first volume of the “Translation from the Elvish”, I will make a throughout analysis of the chapter-structure of the “Lost Tales” and the various “Quenta”’s. For this task a chart would be best. But the forum does not easily allow that an therefore I will provide only simple listing for each work discussed. In the Case of the “Lost Tales” Tolkien did change his mind while he worked on the Tales. Thus we have a earlier Version and later Version. I will only provide the later Version since that does more or less follow the chronological order. Often the sources do not provide us with headlines for the chapters. Were that is the case I have worked backwards and adopted as fitting as possible chapter-headings from the later versions. The Only part that never got a title is the second part of the Túrin-Saga from Flinding/Gwindor leading him Nargothrond to the Death of Túrin, for this I simply called “Of Túrin and Glaurung” with the proper name of dragon according to the version of the tale.

To make the later suggesting more understandable I will introduce some formation system for the headings:
Great Tale = headings of text collections such as: Narn Beren ion Barahir
Chapter = such as: The Lay of Leithian
Sub-chapter = such as: Of Thingol in Doriath
Sub-heading = such as: Of Lúthien the Beloved

The Bock of Lost Tales
1 Ælfwine of England
2 The cottage of Lost Play
3 The Music of the Ainur
4 The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor
5 The Chaning of Melko
6 The Coming of the elves and the Making of Kôr
7 The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor
8 The Flight of the Noldoli
9 The Tale of the Sun and the Moon
10 The Hiding of Valinor
11 The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind
12 The Tale of Tinúviel
13 The Tale of Turambar and the Foalóke
14 The Fall of Gondolin
15 The Nauglafring – The Necklace of the Dwarves
16 [Eärendels youth and first voyage]
17 [Eärendels second voyage and the building of Wingilot]
18 [Eärendels voyage to Valinor]
19 [The destruction of the Heavens of Sirion, the March of the Elves of Kôr and the retread of the Elves to Tol Eressea]
20 [Eärendels voyage back, his journey to the Ruins of Gondolin, and his search for Elwing]
21 Eärendels voyage to the firmament
?22 [Ælfwine’s voyage home]?


Sketch of the Mythology
1 [Of Valinor and the Two Trees]
2 [Of the Coming of the Elves, Of Thingol]
3 [Of Kôr and Alqualondë, Of the Silmarils]
4 [Of the Darkening of Valinor]
5 [Of the Flight of the Noldoli]
6 [Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor]
7 [Of Men]
8 [Of the Return of the Noldor]
9 [Of the Siege of Angband, Of the Ruin of Beleriand]
10 [Of Beren and Lúthien]
11 [Of the Third Battle: The Battle of Unnumbered Tears]
12 [Of Túrin in The Hapless]
13 [Of Túrin and Glórung]
14 [Of the Ruin of Doriath]
15 [Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin]
16 [Of Meglin, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin]
17 [Of the Voyage of Eärendil]
18 [Of The Terrible or Last Battle]
19 [Of the judgement of the Gods and the Prophecy of the Last End of the World]


The Quenta
[Of the Valar]
1 [Of Valinor and the Two Trees]
2 [Of the Coming of the Elves, Of Thingol]
3 [Of Kôr and Alqualondë, Of the Silmarils]
4 [Of the Darkening of Valinor]
5 [Of the Flight of the Noldoli]
6 [Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor]
7 [Of Men]
8 [Of the Return of the Noldor]
9 [Of the Siege of Angband, Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin]
10 [Of Beren and Lúthien]
11 [Of the Third Battle: The Battle of Unnumbered Tears]
12 [O Túrin the Hapless]
13 [Of Túrin and Glórung]
14 [Of the Ruin of Doriath]
15 [Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin]
16 [Of Meglin, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin]
17 [Of the Voyage of Eärendil]
18 [Of The Terrible or Last Battle]
19 [Of the judgement of the Gods and the Prophecy of the Last End of the World]


Quenta Silmarillion
1 Of the Valar
2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
3a Of the Coming of the Elves
3b Of Thingol
3c Of Kôr and Alqualondë
4 Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor
5 Of the Flight of the Noldor
6 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
7 Of Men
8 Of the Siege of Angband
9 Of Beleriand and its Realms
10 Of Men and Dwarfs
11 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Gumlin

12 Of Beren and Lúthien Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
13 Of Beren and Lúthien The Quest of the Silmaril
14 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
15 The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
16 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien
16 [sic] Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
17 Of Túrin Turamarth or Túrin the Hapless
{13} [Of Túrin and Glórung]
{14} [Of the Ruin of Doriath]
{15} [Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin]
{16} [Of Meglin, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin]
{17} [Of the Voyage of Eärendil]
?? Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos


The chapter {13} to {17} are taken into the “Quenta Silmarillion” in script from “The Quenta”. In the middle of {17} the “Quenta Silmarillon” is build by a revised copy. There were no chapter numbers. But their seemed to be a difference between the first inserted Headline (Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath) and the others in that Tolkien envisaged at this place a chapter break from the start (by inserting a greater space and beginning the next § with an ornate initale, while the other headlines were only written against a §-break. Therefore I have taken the others only as sub-chapters.

The Later Quenta Silmarillion Version 1
1 Of the Valar
2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
3 Of the Coming of the Elves
4 Of Thingol and Melian
5 Of Eldanor and the Princes of the Eldalie
6 Of the Silmarils and the Darkening of Valinor
7 Of the Flight of the Noldor
8 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
9 Of Men
10 Of the Siege of Angband
11 Of Beleriand and its Realms
12 Of the Naugrim and the Edain

Concerning the Dwarves
… Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
… Of the Edain

13 Of the Ruin of Beleriand
The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor

14 Of Beren and Lúthien Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
15 Of Beren and Lúthien The Quest of the Silmaril
16 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
17 The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
18 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos[/b]
The Choices of Lúthien
19 Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
20 Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
21 Of Túrin Turamarth or Túrin the Hapless

There is nothing more in that version. Chapter 15 to the end are only dull copies of “The Quenta Silmarillion”

The Later Quenta Silmarillion Version 2
1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
2 Of the Coming of the Elves
3 Of Thingol and Melian
4 Of Eldanor and the Princes of the Eldalie
5 Of Finwë and Míriel
6 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
7 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
8 Of the Drakening of Valinor

Of the Rape of the Silmarils
9 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
10 Of the Flight of the Noldor
11 Of Men
12 Of the Siege of Angband
13 The Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

Of Dagor Aglareb
14 Of Beleriand and its Realms
[15] Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
16 Concerning the Dwarfes

Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
17 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
… Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain

18 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor

[19] Of Beren and Lúthien Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
[20] Of Beren and Lúthien The Quest of the Silmaril
[21] The Quest of the Silmaril 2
[22] The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
[23] The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien
[24] Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
[25] Of Túrin Turamarth or Túrin the Hapless
??
[27] [Of the Ruin of Doriath]
[28] [Of the founding of Gondolin]
[29] [Of Meglin, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin]
[30] [Of the Voyage of Eärendil]
[31] Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos


Tolkien did make a renumbering up to chapter 10. Since he thought of an “Round Earth Version he numbered “Of Men” with 11 and omitted “Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor”. He did then go one with the renumbering up to 18, missing only to scrib in the #15. I have renumbered the rest of the chapters accordingly. After the chapter “Of Túrin the Hapless” is a gape in the narrative. It might be that Tolkien saw a second chapter for the Túrin Saga as it had been in all other versions of the “Quenta”-tradition. From the Chapters “Of Beren and Lúthien” to the mid of “Of Túrin the Hapless” are only dull copies of “The Later Quenta Silmarillion Version 1”. Afterwards to the middle of “The Tale of Eärendil” the script is a copy of “The Quenta”. The rest is a slightly revised copy of the conclusion of “The Quenta Silmarillion”.

Last but not least we have the “Quenta Silmarillion ‘77” by Christopher Tolkien. For a better understanding of his rearrangements I will in some places give the old chapter-heading from LQ2 in braktes.
Quenta Silmarillion ‘77
1 Of the Beginnig of Days [Of Valinor and the Two Trees]
2 Of Aule and Yavanna [Concerning Naugrim + Of the Ents and the Eagles]
3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor
4 Of Thingol and Melian
5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
6 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
7 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
8 Of the Drakening of Valinor
9 Of the Flight of the Noldor
10 Of the Sindar [Added from the Grey Annals]
11 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
12 Of Men
13 Of the Return of the Noldor
14 Of Beleriand and its Realms
15 Of the Noldor in Beleriand
16 Of Maeglin [Added from a Tale of its own]
17 Of the Coming of Men into the West
18 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
19 Of Beren and Lúthien
20 Of the Fifthe Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
21 Of Túrin Turambar [Edited up from the Narn and the 2 old Chapters concerning Túrin]
22 Of the Ruin of Doriath [Edited up from various sources]
23 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin [Edited with material from the Later Tuor]
24 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath


From what Lindil has posted, I do not see what will be the content of “Concerning Dwarves” if he takes up Christopher Tolkiens idea of dealing with the creation of them in “Of Aule and Yavanna”. In addition Lindil had not taken up Christopher’s chapter “Of the Sindar”, which I would think is needed in our version, even if we may consider reshaping it from the original sources.

What I will first provide is an enlarged version of the chapter-structure of the “Quenta Silmarillion”. Thus I include all that is given by LQ1 and LQ2 and add to it what I feel is necessary or change the order of chapters following Christopher Tolkien when I feel that this servers our over-all goal better. The chapters are renumber.

Quenta Silmarillion
1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
[2 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles
Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
… Of the Ents and the Eagles
]
3 Of the Coming of the Elves
4 Of Thingol and Melian
5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
6 Of Finwë and Míriel
7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
8 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
9 Of the Drakening of Valinor

Of the Rape of the Silmarils
10 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
11 Of the Flight of the Noldor

[12 Of the Sindar]
13 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
14 Of Men
15 Of the Siege of Angband
16 The Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

Of Dagor Aglareb
17 Of Beleriand and its Realms
18 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin

[19 Of Maeglin]
20 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand
Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
… Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain

21 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin
The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor

22 Of Beren and Lúthien Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
23 Of Beren and Lúthien The Quest of the Silmaril
24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
25 The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
26 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien
27 Of the Fifth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad Of the Union of Maidros
28 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapless
29 [Of Túrin and Glaurung]
30 Of the Ruin of Doriath
31 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin
32 Of the Voyage of Eärendil
33 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos


Now to this we would add what we can rescue from the “Great Tales”. There for I would include under the heading of the Quenta Silmarillion and Editorial Note like this:
Quote:
Quenta Silmarillion
[Editorial note: For the sake of detail some parts of following text are added from other sources then the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’. These are indicated as seperate entities by a headline of their own and the lake of a chapter number. To avoid redundancy in some places part of the ‘Quenta Silmarillion’ proper were excluded from the text. The chapters thus excluded are given in the list below with the replacements we did take up. Since from the ‘Great Tales’ are only fragments left to us the replacements are often amalgamated from parts of the ‘Great Tale’ and the chapter of the ‘Quetna Silmarillion’.

- 22 Of the Meeting of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel -> replaced by “Narn Beren ion Barahir”
- 23 The Quest of the Silmaril -> replaced by Narn Beren ion Barahir”
- 24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2 -> replaced in part by “Narn Beren ion Barahir”
- 28 Of TúrinTurambar or Túrin the Hapless -> replaced by “Narn e·mbar Hador”
- 29 [Of Túrin and Glaurung] -> replaced by “Narn e·mbar Hador”
- 30 Of the Ruin of Doriath -> replaced in part by “Narn e·mbar Hador”
- 31 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin -> replaced by “Narn e·mbar Hador”

In the case of chapter “28 Of the Ruin of Doriath” we have taken up what could be found of the “Narn e·mbar Hador” into the body of the chapter of the “Quenta Silmarillion”.]
The chapter-structure would than lock like this:
Quote:
TRANSLATION FROM THE ELVISH
volume 1: THE ELDER DAYS

Ainulindale

Valaquenta

. Of the Valar
. Of the Maiar
. Of the Enemies


Quenta Silmarillion
. 1 Of Valinor and the Two Trees
. 2 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles
Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim
… Of the Ents and the Eagles

. 3 Of the Coming of the Elves
. 4 Of Thingol and Melian
. 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie
. 6 Of Finwë and Míriel
. 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor
. 8 Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
. 9 Of the Drakening of Valinor

Of the Rape of the Silmarils
. 10 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel
. 11 Of the Flight of the Noldor
. 12 Of the Sindar
. 13 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
. 14 Of Men
. 15 Of the Siege of Angband
. 16 The Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

Of Dagor Aglareb
. 17 Of Beleriand and its Realms
. 18 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin
. 19 Of Maeglin
. 20 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand

Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar
… Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain


Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
. Appendix: The Tale of Adanel

. 21 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin

The Death of Fingolfin
… Of the Swarthy Men
… The Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor


Narn Beren ion Barahir or Narn e·Dinúviel
. The Lay of Leithian
Of Thingol in Doriath
…… Of Lúthien the Beloved
…… Of Dairon Minstrel of Thingol
Of Morgoth & the Snaring of Gorlim
…… Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings
…… Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses
…… Of Gorlim Unhappy
Of Beren Son of Barahir & his Escape
Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath; but first is told of the Meeting of Melian and Thingol
…… Beren's meeting with Lúthien
Beren before Thingol
… Luthien's captivity in Doriath
… Beren in Nargothrond
… Beren and Felagund before Sauron
… Lúthien in Nargothrond
… The defeat of Sauron
… The attack by Celegorm and Curufin
… The disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband
… Fingolfin and Morgoth; the meeting with Carcharoth
… Beren and Luthien in Angband
… Escape from Angband


. 24 The Quest of the Silmaril 2
. 25 The Quest of the Silmaril 3
The Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth
. 26 The Song of Lúthien in Mandos
The Choices of Lúthien

Narn e·mbar Hador
. Narn i Chîn Húrin or Narn e·’Rach Morgoth
The Childhood of Túrin
. 27 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad
The Words of Húrin and Morgoth
… The Departure of Túrin
… Túrin in Doriath
… Túrin among the Outlaws
… Of Mîm the Dwarf
… ?Of Dor-Cúrathol, the Land of Bow and Helm?
… ?Of Túrins Rescue by Beleg?
… ?Túrin in Nargothrond?
… The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin
… The coming of Túrin into Brethil
… The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond
… Nienor in Brethil
… The Coming of Glaurung
… The Death of Glaurung
… The Death of Túrin


. 30 Of the Ruin of Doriath
.The Wanderings of Húrin
…… The Shadow falls on Brethil
…… Húrin in Nargothrond
…… Húrin in Doriath
The Nauglamír Necklace of the Dwarves ‘Sigil Elu-neath’ Necklace of the Woe of Thingol

. Narn en·Êl or Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar Orthad en·Êl
… [I]Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

. 32 Of the Voyage of Eärendil
. 33 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath

Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons
… Of the Passing of the Elves
… The Second Prophecy of Mandos
That might seem a bit chaotic but in the moment it is the best I can come up with. Please feel free to disagree with me .

Respectfully
Findegil

Last edited by Findegil; 01-23-2005 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Added the chapters of the Ainulidalë / Added The Choices of Lúthien which I have overlock in my preivous research
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