[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Nope. Bilbo & Frodo are naturally conservative in behaviour & speech patters. They are old fashioned & would tend to avoid neologisms like 'lunch'. Merry & Pippin are the very opposite - use of new words would certainly reflect Tookishness.

Again wrong. It is amazing how you ignore the text to suit yourself; this has been the only consistent point you have maintained through your ever-changing attempts to rewrite the story along your perceived class distinctions:

There were three official meals: lunch, tea and dinner (or supper). But lunch and tea were marked chiefly by the fact that at those times all the guests were sitting down and eating together. -- A Long-expected Party

One would think that Tolkien, if he cared in the least for your view or promulgated this distinctive class action, would not have so prominently ordered his meals in such a manner for the most famous occasion to occur in the Shire for years. If one agrees that Tolkien, as a philologist, used his words very succinctly, then he would have not been so blithe as to ignore such a social convention if it mattered to him. It is of note that the author himself uses 'dinner' and 'supper' interchangeably (but not so 'lunch' and 'dinner' throughout this whole sequence), and if you believe that Hobbits wrote LOTR, then this would be a direct reminiscence of Frodo or Bilbo (considering Sam would never use the term 'lunch' *winks*); otherwise, this is Tolkien himself imparting his preferences from Oxford, where they do indeed have lunch.

And as far as neologisms, Bilbo uses a neologism in the Hobbit: the word 'confusticate', as the concoction of such pseudo-Latinate words were very popular in the 19th century.

Furthermore:

"This is the signal for supper!" said Bilbo...There was a splendid supper for everyone; for everyone, that is, except for those invited to the special family dinner-party. --A Long Expected Party

After the 'feast' (a word Tolkien uses several times to define this supper) came the dreaded 'after-dinner speech'. The use of 'supper' as a 'feast' goes directly against your implication that 'supper' is a light meal just before bedtime. There is no second dinner in this application, supper (or dinner) is the meal after tea, and lunch is the mid-day meal. Again, 'dinner' and 'supper' are interchangeable.

Originally Posted by davem

Yes, & Tolkien also states that Hobbits are based on rural Englsih folk from the time of the Diamond Jubilee, & they would have said dinner not lunch. Sorry, but you can't use one statement by Tolkien to try & support your argument & then ignore another one which totally destroys it.

I need a reference to where Tolkien states that the Hobbits are only 'based on rural English folk from the time of the Diamond Jubilee'. I emphasize the word 'only' and 'diamond jubilee' here because you are stepping into a quagmire if you believe that Tolkien ever took merely one point of view for any of his characters/races. You supply that quote, and I shall provide several more to the contrary.

Originally Posted by Davem

No. Ask any English person about the use of dinner as opposed to lunch. If an English person uses 'dinner' to refer to the mid day meal rather than 'lunch' you can tell instantly what class they are, what their social background is, what TV programmes they watched as children, what newspapers they read - or at least make a very good guess. Ok, its not quite as clear cut these days as it was back in the late 19th century, but its still there - trust me.

What you believe does not matter (in this instance anyway), sorry. I am reading from the text directly and there is no implication anywhere that there is a societal ban on the term 'lunch'. 'Lunch' is featured prominently in the books, and there is never an aspersion cast on the word. Dinner and lunch and dinner and supper are used interchangeably throughout the text, and you can be as indignant as you wish but that does not change the text.

P.S. Davem, I do not wish to go 'round in circles regarding this digression, all I ask is that you supply textual quotes to bolster your claim. As I mentioned in my previous reply:

And please supply a direct quote from any Hobbit character of the lower classes that uses the term 'dinner' for a midday meal. You won't find it, and neither will you find a reference to 'lunch' or 'supper'. The absence of something does not prove you are correct. The only reference to a lower class Hobbit using the term 'dinner' is Old Noakes and that was concerning a meal in the moonlight.

Everything else is merely conjecture. I have supplied specific quotes regarding the interchangeability of the word(s) in question and you have not.