[davem]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

While I agree in a general sense with their desire to feel honored in the halls of their fathers, could you provide some specific instances of suicidal action on their part.

Eowyn.

Ok. Take Eomer's reaction at finding Theoden & Eowyn on the field - Death, Death, Death, Death take us all. And all the Riders take up the cry. Rohan's is a 'death &/or glory' culture, very like that if the dwarves. Their concern is less with living a happy, peaceful life, as going down doing something heroic & having a song written about it.

Aragorn and Company were there for a specific reason to do exactly as they did. Pride did not drive them there as much as necessity. Something needed to distract the Eye. Fighting him on his doorstep was the best means of keeping his attention away from the inside of his house.

Well, that's why they went there, but once they've seen Frodo's gear, & are facing (apparently) inevitable defeat, they decide to stand & fight anyway, rather than either surrender, & live to fight another day, or stage a tactical retreat, regroup, & make an organised assault on Sauron later. Aragorn decides to throw away his own life & the lives of his major allies - Eomer & Gandalf.

He does not do what Beorhtnoth does because Beorhtnoth could have achieved a decisive victory by force of arms through fighting like a sensible general. Aragorn could not win by force of arms. He was endeavoring to do his part in a plan to defeat Sauron in which arms were a distraction away from the real issue.

But Anglo-saxon generals weren't 'sensible'. It was about more than simply winning, it was about winning honourably. Beortnoth believed, & so did his people, that a victory gained dishonourably was a moral defeat, & that it was better to go down fighting & win the moral victory. Turin wins a 'moral' victory over Morgoth in that sense, as does Feanor - they never choose the 'sensible' option if that means letting the enemy win even a small victory. Viewed from our, 'sensible' 21st century position, their actions seem gross & ridiculous, as well as callous in their disregard of others. But lets not forget that no-body has to go along with them. Something in them, in their ofermod is darkly attractive - something in all of us has felt that way at some point - 'I know its stupid, I know I'm going to suffer for it in the end - its not 'sensible', but I'm just not going to take this **** from that ***** any longer!'

While this is true to an extent, it would be better to have heroes to inspire future generations to act in a temperate manner. These sorts of heroes have a way of coming to bad ends and taking a lot of people with them.

Yes, but unfortunately, we're humans, & temperate manners don't inspire us -
Tolkien quotes Chesterton in the Fairy Stories esssay - something along the lines of Children like fairy stories where the villain is put to death, or suffers some horrible fate, whereas we adults feel uncomfortable with those outcomes. Chesterton says its because Children are innocent & prefer justice, while we adults are wicked & therefore prefer mercy.

Turin & Feanor simply never give in, & if they have a choice of losing the battle but winning the moral victory or winning the battle 'sensibly' but losing the moral victory, they'll choose the former, because its not just about who's standing at the end of the fight. Its about never crawling, never begging, never giving your enemie a moment's peace, & never letting him forget you - you're the thorn in his side. You're going to stand & fight honourably, so that in the end if you do win, you can say I won by right, not by cunning, or because I had the advantage of the higher ground. You thereby deprive your enemy of any excuse. He, & everyone else, will know you won because you were a true warrior, & the best one on the day.