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Old 09-13-2017, 02:40 PM   #5
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,694
Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
Back to my own comment 1: I retake it. As it stands now it is fine to have the meeting of the people of Caranthir with the dwarves recorded here.

NE-CD-01: Agreed.

{Thargelion}[Radhrost]: I think Radhrost is as well no longer valid. I would rather replace Thargelion by Talath Rhúnen as in our general changes.

NE-CD-02 and NE-CD-03: Agreed.

NE-CD-04: These dates are okay. And I think we should keep them. We just have to change Glomund to Glaurung.

NE-CD-05: Agreed.

{Maidors}[Maedhros]: Up to now the discussion was between Maedros or Maedron and the decision was made to take the more conservative Maedros. So please remove the ‘h’.

NE-CM-01: Agreed.

NE-KE-01: Agreed.

NE-KE-00.2: Agreed and this change is necessary either way, taking material form Of Dwarves and Men or not.

NE-KE-00.5: The general discussion of material from Of Dwarves and Men we should keep in one place, and that is for me the thread about Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles. If we agree there to take these material up, I agree to this use.

NE-KE-01.2: Agreed.

NE-KE-00.3: Agreed. But see NE-KE-00.5.

NE-KE-03: Agreed. But see NE-KE-00.5. And I would include all the stuff about the Drûg, making your last section look like this:
Quote:
§33 All these were caught in the net of the Doom of the Noldor; and they did great deeds which the Eldar remember still among the histories of the Kings of old. And in those days the strength of Men was added to the power of the Noldor, and hope was renewed; and the people of the three houses of Men throve and multiplied. NE-KE-03 <DM{Greatest was the House of Hador Golden-head, … But in the realms of the West their time was brief and their days unhappy.} The Folk of {Hador}[Marach] were ever the greatest … though all were fair-skinned. [Footnote to the text: No doubt this was due to mingling with Men of other kind in the past; and it was noted that the dark hair ran in families that had more skill and interest in crafts and lore.]
Nonetheless they were akin to the Folk of Bëor, as was shown by their speech. It needed no lore of tongues to perceive that their languages were closely related, for although they could understand one another only with difficulty they had very many words in common. The Elvish loremasters [Footnote to the text: With a knowledge of the language of the Folk of Bëor that was later lost, save for a few names of persons and places, and some words or phrases preserved in legends. One of the common words was atan.] were of opinion that both languages were descended from one … for the language of {Hador}[Marach] was apparently less changed … they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the Folk of {Hador}[Marach], but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind … for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War.
The Folk of Haleth were strangers to the other Atani, … This custom was evidently ancient; [Footnote to the text: Not due to their special situation in Beleriand, and maybe rather a cause of their small numbers than its result. They increased in numbers far more slowly than the other Atani, hardly more than was sufficient to replace the wastage of war; yet many of their women (who were fewer than the men) remained unwed.] for their chieftainess Haleth had been a renowned amazon with a picked bodyguard of women.> NE-KE-04< UT; The Drúedain
The Drúedain
The strangest of all the customs of the Folk of Haleth was the presence among them of people of a wholly different kind,[Footnote to the text: Though they spoke the same language (after their fashion). They retained however a number of words of their own.{ [Author's note.]}] the like of which neither the Eldar in Beleriand nor the other Atani had ever seen before. They were not many, a few hundreds maybe, living apart in families or small tribes, but in friendship, as members of the same community.[Footnote to the text: After the fashion in which in the Third Age the Men and Hobbits of Bree lived together; though there was no kinship between the Drûg-folk and the Hobbits.{ [Author's note.]}] The Folk of Haleth called them by the name drug, ... untainted by scorn or malice.[Footnote to the text: To the unfriendly who, ... regarded the other as renegades.{ [Author's note.] – In The Silmarillion the Orcs are said ... dark eyes that showed nothing.}] In peace they often laughed at work or play when other Men might sing. ... the only creatures for whom their hatred was implacable.
The Eldar called them Drúedain, admitting them to the rank of Atani,[Footnote to the text: NE-KE-05{It is stated in isolated notes that their}Their own name for themselves was Drughu ... In Quenya Drughu became Rú, and Rúatan, plural Rúatani.{ For their other names in later times (Wild Men, Woses, Púkel-men) see pp. 400-1 and note 14.}] for they were much loved while they lasted. Alas! they were not long-lived, and were ever few in number, their losses were heavy in their feud with the Orcs, who turned their hatred and delighted to capture them and torture them. NE-KE-06{ When the victories of Morgoth destroyed ... some of whom came to the last refuges at the Mouth Sirion.[Footnote to the text: In the annals of Númenor it is said that ... died out long before the Downfall."]}
NE-KE-07 <UT, Further Notes on the Drúedain {Another note says that historians}Historians in Gondor believed that the first Men to cross the Anduin were indeed the Drúedain. ... seeking a land where they could be hidden and have peace."> NE-KE-08 <UT, Further Notes on the Drúedain An emigrant branch of the Drúedain accompanied the Folk of Haleth ... who had relapsed into the service of the Dark.>
In their earlier days they had been of great service to those among whom they dwelt, and they were much sought after; though few would ever leave the land of the Folk of Haleth.[Footnote to the text: A few lived in the household of Húrin of the House of Hador, for he had dwelt among the Folk of Haleth in his youth and had kinship with their lord.{ [Author's note.] – On the relationship of Húrin to the Folk of Haleth see The Silmarillion p. 158. – It was my father's intention ultimately to transform Sador, the old serving-man in Húrin's house in Dor-1ómin, into a Drûg.}] They had a marvellous skill as trackers ... or useful as food.[Footnote to the text: They had a law against the use of all poisons for the hurt of any living creatures, even those who had done them injury – save only Orcs, whose poisoned darts they countered with others more deadly.{ [Author's note.] – Elfhelm told Meriadoc Brandybuck that the Wild Men used poisoned arrows ... not even their closest friends among the Folk of Haleth were welcomed there."}] NE-KE-09 <HoME 12; Of Dwarves and Men, Note 51{ To the astonishment of Elves and other Men they ate funguses with pleasure, … and supposed them to have been cursed and blighted by Morgoth.}>
The Drúedain, as also the other Atani, ... although the Atani had a knowledge of metals and some smith-craft before they came to Beleriand,[Footnote to the text: Acquired according to their legends from the Dwarves.{ [Author's note.]}] for metals were hard to come by and forged weapons and tools very costly. But when in Beleriand by association with the Eldar ... Concerning this a tale was related among the Folk of Haleth:

On a time, one of the most skilled in stone-carving among the Drûgs made an image of his father, ... I find your cloak too hot in the sun."

It is said that the Drúedain would often sit thus in times of grief or loss, ... they would hold some of the menace of the living men.
Indeed, though they held the Drúedain in love and trust,... One of these is recorded here.

The Faithful Stone
On a time there was a Drûg named Aghan,... May it keep you from harm!"
Nothing untoward happened for two nights, ... and there remained only a smoke and a stench.
Barach went back indoors to comfort his family, ... How have you fared?"
"We are still alive," said Barach. ... What have you to say to that?"
"I will speak, ... And better that his legs should trample Orc-fire than mine."
Then he sat down and unlaced his buskins, ... then you must take a share in its hurts." NE-KE-10{[Footnote to the text: Of this story, my father remarked: "The tales, such as The Faithful Stone, that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundations of the Barad-dûr and to the Ruling Ring."]}
NE-KE-11 <DM {
This long account of the Druedain has been given, … into some of the legends of the First Age (e.g. the old retainer (Sadog) of Hurin in the legend of Turin).[Footnote to the text: [See Unfinished Tales, p. 386, note 8. Elsewhere Hurin's servingman is named Sador, not Sadog.]]

}The Drûgs or Pukel-men are not however to be confused … and they had or were credited with strange or magical powers. (The tales, such as 'The Faithful Stone', that speak of their transferring part of their 'powers' to their artefacts, remind one in miniature of Sauron's transference of power to the foundation of the Barad-dur and to the Ruling Ring.){[Footnote to the text: [This sentence is cited in Unfinished Tales, p. 387, note 11.]]} Also the Drûgs were a frugal folk, … the Drûgs were short-lived compared with other kinds of Men.
The Drûgs that are met in the tales of the First Age … not even their closest friends among the Folk of Haleth were welcomed there.NE-KE-12>
§34 The years of the Edain were lengthened, … and the faces that had beheld the Light.
Now to my additional changes:
NE-KE-04: This is the start of the Drúedain stuff. It might be used to head the general discussion if this material should be placed here. I did not mark the removal of editorial footnotes with editing markers. I hope that is okay.

NE-KE-05: Here we have a special case. The material about the selfnaming should be included, but it can be discussed if a footnote is the right wax, when this arrangement was clearly editorial.

NE-KE-06: Thedeleted stuff should be used in the Second Age story.

NE-KE-07 and NE-KE-08: This alone would, in my opinion, be worth the inclusion of the Drûg in this chapter.

NE-KE-09: JRR Tolkien marked these for deletion. But I hesitate about it. Even so I see Tolkiens reason, this would fit the Drûg very well and provides a look into the attitude to fungus of the other Edain and Eldar.

NE-KE-10: Okay this is an editorial footnote, but it contains some Authorial statement. Therefore I put a marker on it. Nonetheless I think it must go.

NE-KE-11: This § seems not useable as it is too much showing the essay stile.

NE-KE-12: I put that marker to discuss the Hobbit stuff that follows in OF Dwarves and Men. For me that would belong into the Third Age narrative. But it can be discussed if (farther) parts of it should be included here.

Respectfully
Findegil
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