Thread: Bye Bye Balrogs
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Old 08-24-2001, 10:08 AM   #35
Aiwendil
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Re: Bye Bye Balrogs

Bob:
&lt;&lt;But please note that the dastardly NOTE refers to the Balrogs in the War of the Powers _where it was inserted_ and to which it particulary applies.&gt;&gt;

Ah. Now I think I understand what you mean. It's a possibility I hadn't considered before. If I understand you correctly, you mean that of the various Maiar demons that served Morgoth, only seven were involved in (and killed in) the War of the Powers. Still, I don't think I can accept this as a correct interpretation of the note; the note says that at most 7 &quot;ever existed&quot;. I suppose a looser interpretation of the note is possible, as we've already gone as far as considering disregarding it entirely.

&lt;&lt;Boldog as far as I know is an Ainu-Orc.
I have heard a suggestion or two that this possible title may be basis as a defintion for lesser Balrogs. The Author himself, while unsure as to if it is a title or name, still classifies it creature-wise as Ainu-Orc(s).&gt;&gt;

Agreed. I don't think we can stretch the Boldog thing as far as some have suggested.

&lt;&lt;So we have the 7 Valaraukar (Maiarin Balrogs) as Balrog lords and other 'Incarnate Balrogs' (as the lesser Balrogs that could form the larger numbers?&gt;&gt;

Here's where I'm still a little confused. Do you mean that the other Balrogs weren't Maiar? Or just that they were less powerful Maiar?

jallanite:
&lt;&lt;But the note exists, and it can be used, and should be if acceptable changes can be made.&gt;&gt;

Agreed. I've gone back and forth on this myself: whether it would be better to use the note without question (it is his latest idea on Balrogs) or to almost disregard it (if he suggested the obviously absurd number 3, how seriously can we take 7?). Overall, however, I think we do have to follow it, if it can be made to work.


The question then is whether it can be made to work. I think the thing to consider here is not the Fall of Gondolin, but the War of the Powers. For after changing the 'host' to '3 or at most 7', JRRT does nothing about them all being killed by Manwe. The problem then is like Myths Transformed on a much smaller scale: can we take up the projected change without engaging in 'fan fiction'? As much as I don't want to have to lose any of the Lost Tales Fall of Gondolin, I think the answer is 'Yes'; we're obbligated to stick with 7.

&lt;&lt;Where does one stop on the slippery slope of making minimal emendations and writing fan fiction? I don't really like reducing the party of Balrogs with bows and slings to one Balrog with a bow, however much I like the effect of the tale that is produced. Should I have made them two, one with bow and one with sling, and then had one slain? That would be more difficult to accomplish. &gt;&gt;

It certainly is a tricky issue. I think we should try to remember that what we are doing is making a canon Silmarillion, not rewriting the Fall of Gondolin. That is, it is the Fall of Gondolin material that must be made to fit the 'true' story, not the other way around. Or to put it another way: we should be using only parts of the Fall of Gondolin that can be readily made to agree with the canon; we are NOT simply revising the Fall of Gondolin.

With these considerations in mind, I think that if it comes to basically writing fan fiction in our attempt to correct the Lost Tales, we should drop the older material entirely.

I don't really like this option (as the Fall of Gondolin is one of my favorite stories) but I do support it.

&lt;&lt;I am by no means bashing all of the work of aiwendill and jallanite and others, just pointing out the dilemna that J is acknowledging as having it's roots in the working principles that allow this much freedom.&gt;&gt;

I don't think the problem is so much with the principles as with our application of them. Rather than fiddling with the late note, and the Lost Tales, and Boldogs and such, I think we should perhaps strictly follow the latest conceptions of Tolkien, and simply drop any old stuff that does not agree. We are under no obbligation to use the Lost Tales material; we shouldn't bend the canon in order to preserve it.

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