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Aiwendil · 01-09-2002, 11:44 AM

Balrog Solutions

In preparation for a possible poll on this subject, I think perhaps we should reopen some discussion on this thread. As I see it, we have the following possibilities with regard to Balrogs in the Fall of Gondolin:

1. Balrogs a thousand

Keep every single Balrog in the old Tale. They are still killed by the dozen by the Noldor.

Pros: This minimizes the changes we would make to JRRT's actual text.

Cons: A number of sources strongly suggest that Balrogs were later considered both more powerful and less numerous. In LotR, the appearance of one is quite dramatic; it is, according to Gandalf, a foe beyond any of the company save himself. Late discussions of Glorfindel suggest that his slaying of a Balrog was an extremely heroic act. A late note to the Annals of Aman proposes that only '3 or at most 7' ever existed.

2. Ambiguity: CRT's idea

Cut down on the number of Balrogs in the Tale as much as possible, but do not insist that there must only be seven. Several Balrogs can be assumed to have died here, and Rog can safely kill at least one.

Pros: This allows us to follow the trend of JRRT's later Balrog ideas without forcing us to cut out major portions of the tale or to be extremely specific about where each of the Balrogs was. There is some precedent for this, as it is the option that CRT went with in the '77. The late note indicating seven can be discounted as a projected change.

Cons: There may not be enough justification for completely disregarding the '7' note. This half-acceptance of the later Balrog concept is nowhere suggested in JRRT's writings.

3. The Elucidation

Assume that there are three or seven powerful Maiar Balrogs, and an ambiguous number of lesser Balrogs, either created by Morgoth or some lesser form of Maiar, possibly Boldog-types.

Pros: We would nominally be following the late note, but would be able to keep most if not all of the Balrogs in the Lost Tales version.

Cons: A distinction between two types of Balrogs is nowhere suggested by JRRT. Later sources indicate that Morgoth was incapable of creating new life. The Boldog passage is speculative and does not give us the authority to convert Balrogs into Boldogs.

4. Seven surviving, ambiguous Balrogs

Assume that there were originally more than seven Balrogs, but that only seven survived the Battle of the Powers. Cut out portions of the Fall of Gondolin that would require us to be precise about where each Balrog was, and whether any more than two died.

Pros: This takes into account the late '7' note to an extent. It does not contradict the Annals of Aman account of the Battle of the Powers. Cutting out sections of the Fall of Gondolin allows us to be ambiguous about what each Balrog was doing.

Cons: This does not follow the late note to the letter; the note says that no more than 7 'ever existed'. Significant portions of the Tale would be lost.

5. Seven surviving, non-ambiguous Balrogs

Assume that there were originally more than seven Balrogs, but that only seven survived the Battle of the Powers. Follow Jallanite's proposed revisions that cut the number of Balrogs in the Fall of Gondolin down to 7.

Pros: This takes into account the late '7' note to an extent. It does not contradict the Annals of Aman account of the Battle of the Powers. It retains most of the Tale.

Cons: This does not follow the late note to the letter; the note says that no more than 7 'ever existed'. It may not be justified for us to rewrite the Tale with only 7 Balrogs, since that would require us to provide made up details about where each Balrog was and how many died.

6. Seven ambiguous Balrogs

Only seven Balrogs ever existed. Assume that the Annals of Aman would have been rewritten so that no Balrogs were killed in the Battle of the Powers. Cut out portions of the Fall of Gondolin that would require us to be precise about where each Balrog was, and whether any more than two died.

Pros: Follows the late '7' note. Cutting out sections of the Fall of Gondolin allows us to be ambiguous about what each Balrog was doing.

Cons: Contradicts the latest account of the Battle of the Powers. It is hard to believe that no Balrogs were killed then. Significant portions of the Tale would be lost.

7. Seven non-ambiguous Balrogs

Only seven Balrogs ever existed. Assume that the Annals of Aman would have been rewritten so that no Balrogs were killed in the Battle of the Powers. Follow Jallanite's proposed revisions that cut the number of Balrogs in the Fall of Gondolin down to 7.

Pros: Follows the late '7' note. Retains most of the Tale.

Cons: Contradicts the latest account of the Battle of the Powers. It is hard to believe that no Balrogs were killed then. It may not be justified for us to rewrite the Tale with only 7 Balrogs, since that would require us to provide made up details about where each Balrog was and how many died.

Hmm . . . seven Balrog solutions to match seven Balrogs? Well, those are the solutions that have been presented so far, each deeply flawed in some way. If anyone can think of any more possibilities, post them and, I suppose, we'll add them to the poll. Note that I did not adress the question of re-embodiment; a re-embodiment solution would fall under no. 6 or 7.

01-09-2002, 11:44 AM	#61
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Balrog Solutions In preparation for a possible poll on this subject, I think perhaps we should reopen some discussion on this thread. As I see it, we have the following possibilities with regard to Balrogs in the Fall of Gondolin: 1. Balrogs a thousand Keep every single Balrog in the old Tale. They are still killed by the dozen by the Noldor. Pros: This minimizes the changes we would make to JRRT's actual text. Cons: A number of sources strongly suggest that Balrogs were later considered both more powerful and less numerous. In LotR, the appearance of one is quite dramatic; it is, according to Gandalf, a foe beyond any of the company save himself. Late discussions of Glorfindel suggest that his slaying of a Balrog was an extremely heroic act. A late note to the Annals of Aman proposes that only '3 or at most 7' ever existed. 2. Ambiguity: CRT's idea Cut down on the number of Balrogs in the Tale as much as possible, but do not insist that there must only be seven. Several Balrogs can be assumed to have died here, and Rog can safely kill at least one. Pros: This allows us to follow the trend of JRRT's later Balrog ideas without forcing us to cut out major portions of the tale or to be extremely specific about where each of the Balrogs was. There is some precedent for this, as it is the option that CRT went with in the '77. The late note indicating seven can be discounted as a projected change. Cons: There may not be enough justification for completely disregarding the '7' note. This half-acceptance of the later Balrog concept is nowhere suggested in JRRT's writings. 3. The Elucidation Assume that there are three or seven powerful Maiar Balrogs, and an ambiguous number of lesser Balrogs, either created by Morgoth or some lesser form of Maiar, possibly Boldog-types. Pros: We would nominally be following the late note, but would be able to keep most if not all of the Balrogs in the Lost Tales version. Cons: A distinction between two types of Balrogs is nowhere suggested by JRRT. Later sources indicate that Morgoth was incapable of creating new life. The Boldog passage is speculative and does not give us the authority to convert Balrogs into Boldogs. 4. Seven surviving, ambiguous Balrogs Assume that there were originally more than seven Balrogs, but that only seven survived the Battle of the Powers. Cut out portions of the Fall of Gondolin that would require us to be precise about where each Balrog was, and whether any more than two died. Pros: This takes into account the late '7' note to an extent. It does not contradict the Annals of Aman account of the Battle of the Powers. Cutting out sections of the Fall of Gondolin allows us to be ambiguous about what each Balrog was doing. Cons: This does not follow the late note to the letter; the note says that no more than 7 'ever existed'. Significant portions of the Tale would be lost. 5. Seven surviving, non-ambiguous Balrogs Assume that there were originally more than seven Balrogs, but that only seven survived the Battle of the Powers. Follow Jallanite's proposed revisions that cut the number of Balrogs in the Fall of Gondolin down to 7. Pros: This takes into account the late '7' note to an extent. It does not contradict the Annals of Aman account of the Battle of the Powers. It retains most of the Tale. Cons: This does not follow the late note to the letter; the note says that no more than 7 'ever existed'. It may not be justified for us to rewrite the Tale with only 7 Balrogs, since that would require us to provide made up details about where each Balrog was and how many died. 6. Seven ambiguous Balrogs Only seven Balrogs ever existed. Assume that the Annals of Aman would have been rewritten so that no Balrogs were killed in the Battle of the Powers. Cut out portions of the Fall of Gondolin that would require us to be precise about where each Balrog was, and whether any more than two died. Pros: Follows the late '7' note. Cutting out sections of the Fall of Gondolin allows us to be ambiguous about what each Balrog was doing. Cons: Contradicts the latest account of the Battle of the Powers. It is hard to believe that no Balrogs were killed then. Significant portions of the Tale would be lost. 7. Seven non-ambiguous Balrogs Only seven Balrogs ever existed. Assume that the Annals of Aman would have been rewritten so that no Balrogs were killed in the Battle of the Powers. Follow Jallanite's proposed revisions that cut the number of Balrogs in the Fall of Gondolin down to 7. Pros: Follows the late '7' note. Retains most of the Tale. Cons: Contradicts the latest account of the Battle of the Powers. It is hard to believe that no Balrogs were killed then. It may not be justified for us to rewrite the Tale with only 7 Balrogs, since that would require us to provide made up details about where each Balrog was and how many died. Hmm . . . seven Balrog solutions to match seven Balrogs? Well, those are the solutions that have been presented so far, each deeply flawed in some way. If anyone can think of any more possibilities, post them and, I suppose, we'll add them to the poll. Note that I did not adress the question of re-embodiment; a re-embodiment solution would fall under no. 6 or 7.