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Old 08-29-2004, 08:58 AM   #2
davem
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.davem is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I've always ataken the Halls of Mandos as the Middle earth equivalent of Purgatory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esty
My admittedly vague notions of purgatory are of a punishment preceding entrance into heaven. Tolkien adds a corrective purpose to that, making it a place where character traits lacking in real life are added to round off the personality. Is it for that reason that he sees it as a necessary stage of the after-life, even for a redeemed Christian like himself?
As I understand it (not being a Catholic either), that isn't Tolkien's addition, but the whole purpose of Purgatory. Purgatory implies a 'purging' of faults, & a perfecting of the individual.

Quote:
I don’t understand why Grace takes effect only after a long period of punishment, as grace waives punishment in my understanding of Christian doctrine, but apparently he saw it that way.
I don't see this - if it were the case that grace worked in that way then what part does the individual play in the process? What about the necessity for repentance? Surely repentance requires that the individual be purified, usually by experience, & I can't see that it matters whether that purificatory experience comes during life or after death. If the individual is not so 'purified' by experience, how would they realise they needed grace? The problem with the protestant approach, to put the opposing case,(& I'm not a protestant, either) is that there is no second chance, no opportunity to review one's deeds in life & try & make amends.

Let's say Niggle's story had been a protestant allegory - Niggle would have been judged on his actions in his earthly life only, with no opportunity to take stock & make himself fit to go on to the mountains. As he was when he took his 'journey' he would never have been able to get to them, let alone over them to what lay beyond.

Whatever, Niggle's experience is necessary for Niggle, which is the point. Perhaps he was in heaven already, but didn't realise it, & his 'purgatorial' experience was actually his awakening to it, & realisation that he was already 'there'.

In the end though, Tolkien was a Catholic, & Catholics believe in purgatory, so if Tolkien was going to write a story about dying & what comes after, purgatory would be part of it.

Of course, its not exactly the Catholic purgatory, as Niggle is not aided in his process by the prayers of those in the world - he must get through it under his own steam.
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