The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post - Thirty silver pennies in a fundamentally religious and Catholic work

Balfrog · 03-17-2018, 10:23 PM

Morthoron

“Thirty silver pennies cannot be dissected into three points”

Oh really! What an absolutely ludicrous.statement!
Honestly I feel like I'm conversing with a five year old.

Just to let you know - very slowly – so that you can take it in:

There are three individual facts associated to the phrase: 'thirty silver pennies'.
Each fact can have a tangency against it.

Very slowly:

Fact 1: There is the number '30'.

Fact 2: There is a metal called 'silver'

Fact 3: There are the coins that are 'pennies'.

Is that slow enough?
So onward to meaningful comparisons:

Example 1: For the phrase '30 gold coins' – that results in two tangecies against the Biblical tale
Example 2: For the phrase '40 copper coins'– that would result in one tangency.
etc., etc.

The less the number of tangencies – the less of an alluring match. Is that plain enough? Do you get it now?

The reason why this is all so intriguing is that in a very short phrase (in TLotR) – we have three tangencies that match something of great significance in the Biblical story. In other words within the TLotR phrase itself there are three points of tangency. Geometrically when a shape such as a circle touches another shape such as line. The coincident point is known as a 'point of tangency'.

One does not even need to consider separate issues beyond this three word phrase. On its own, 'thirty silver pennies' is intriguing enough!

The fact you are unable to grasp even elementary principles – means I'm wasting my precious time. However I really don't mind – except you're coming across as more and more foolish. Yet I enjoy having a good laugh – because you're spewing stuff that doesn't even make common-sense. It's pure bluster – as is the rest of your post. Please open another thread – and I'll be happy to discuss 'Exodus, the ox and the shekels'.

Because Morthoron, both you (and others) seem to always 'conveniently' side-step the most critical question. Very simply, put forward once again:

Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story?

Just give me an answer: Yes or No?

If he wasn't – then by Godsteeth tell me why and provide some evidence?

If he was - then tell me why he put thirty silver coins into the story and why he decided to leave that in – even after editing?

Let's cut to the chase – and cut out the bilge.

Huinesoron

“This is the key point, I think: While thirty pieces of silver are certainly suggestive, by themselves they are only a single point.”

Please see my response to Morthoron – above.

Weren't the number of tangencies sufficient? Do you want me to add other points of tangency? Such as we are told the full worth of the initial monetary loss, in the end, was put to good use – just like in the biblical tale?

“The 'thirty silver pennies' has been debated extensively.”

I would love to see some of these articles – for my own edification. Can you point to them for me please?

Loved your article on Gollum. It is absolutely true that one can associate anything to anything in a long and detailed story. But Gollum wasn't explicitly pointed out as having an association to King Solomon by Tolkien. If he had been – then some analysis would definitely be warranted.

The point is that Tolkien emphasized the Catholic and religous nature of the work and that had been subsumed into the story. It's up to us to try and understand how he did it and at what points this happened.

Ms. Seth has rightly pointed out, for the chapters involving Bombadil, where Tolkien's underlying religious allusions lie. Most strongly with the '30 silver pennies' and less obviously elsewhere. As for those lesser ones, either they are allusions or they or not or they could be. Ms. Seth's point is that are enough of them to build a case. I would take another careful read if I were you and try to digest the thrust of her essay more rationally.

In any case back to the issue at hand – if Morthoron can't or won't answer me, perhaps you can. In repetition then:

Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story?

Just give me an answer: Yes or No?

If he wasn't – then by Godsteeth tell me why and provide some evidence?

If he was - then tell me why he put thirty silver coins into the story and why he decided to leave it in – even after the edit process?

03-17-2018, 10:23 PM	#16
Balfrog Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 87	Morthoron “Thirty silver pennies cannot be dissected into three points” Oh really! What an absolutely ludicrous.statement! Honestly I feel like I'm conversing with a five year old. Just to let you know - very slowly – so that you can take it in: There are three individual facts associated to the phrase: 'thirty silver pennies'. Each fact can have a tangency against it. Very slowly: Fact 1: There is the number '30'. Fact 2: There is a metal called 'silver' Fact 3: There are the coins that are 'pennies'. Is that slow enough? So onward to meaningful comparisons: Example 1: For the phrase '30 gold coins' – that results in two tangecies against the Biblical tale Example 2: For the phrase '40 copper coins'– that would result in one tangency. etc., etc. The less the number of tangencies – the less of an alluring match. Is that plain enough? Do you get it now? The reason why this is all so intriguing is that in a very short phrase (in TLotR) – we have three tangencies that match something of great significance in the Biblical story. In other words within the TLotR phrase itself there are three points of tangency. Geometrically when a shape such as a circle touches another shape such as line. The coincident point is known as a 'point of tangency'. One does not even need to consider separate issues beyond this three word phrase. On its own, 'thirty silver pennies' is intriguing enough! The fact you are unable to grasp even elementary principles – means I'm wasting my precious time. However I really don't mind – except you're coming across as more and more foolish. Yet I enjoy having a good laugh – because you're spewing stuff that doesn't even make common-sense. It's pure bluster – as is the rest of your post. Please open another thread – and I'll be happy to discuss 'Exodus, the ox and the shekels'. Because Morthoron, both you (and others) seem to always 'conveniently' side-step the most critical question. Very simply, put forward once again: Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story? Just give me an answer: Yes or No? If he wasn't – then by Godsteeth tell me why and provide some evidence? If he was - then tell me why he put thirty silver coins into the story and why he decided to leave that in – even after editing? Let's cut to the chase – and cut out the bilge. Huinesoron “This is the key point, I think: While thirty pieces of silver are certainly suggestive, by themselves they are only a single point.” Please see my response to Morthoron – above. Weren't the number of tangencies sufficient? Do you want me to add other points of tangency? Such as we are told the full worth of the initial monetary loss, in the end, was put to good use – just like in the biblical tale? “The 'thirty silver pennies' has been debated extensively.” I would love to see some of these articles – for my own edification. Can you point to them for me please? Loved your article on Gollum. It is absolutely true that one can associate anything to anything in a long and detailed story. But Gollum wasn't explicitly pointed out as having an association to King Solomon by Tolkien. If he had been – then some analysis would definitely be warranted. The point is that Tolkien emphasized the Catholic and religous nature of the work and that had been subsumed into the story. It's up to us to try and understand how he did it and at what points this happened. Ms. Seth has rightly pointed out, for the chapters involving Bombadil, where Tolkien's underlying religious allusions lie. Most strongly with the '30 silver pennies' and less obviously elsewhere. As for those lesser ones, either they are allusions or they or not or they could be. Ms. Seth's point is that are enough of them to build a case. I would take another careful read if I were you and try to digest the thrust of her essay more rationally. In any case back to the issue at hand – if Morthoron can't or won't answer me, perhaps you can. In repetition then: Was Tolkien learned enough to understand 30 silver coins was strongly associated to the Christian story? Just give me an answer: Yes or No? If he wasn't – then by Godsteeth tell me why and provide some evidence? If he was - then tell me why he put thirty silver coins into the story and why he decided to leave it in – even after the edit process?