[Aran e-Godhellim]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Aran - Interesting idea. However, I'm hesitant to do this because so much material is repeated in both A and B. Certainly, it's possible for there to be some redundancy between a 'Translator's Note' and a 'Preface', but I think that in this case it seems clear that Tolkien intended B to replace A rather than stand alongside it.

Can you explain your reservations about the name 'minlamad thent/estent'? I'm not aware of any problems with it, though I'm no Sindarin scholar.

You may be right on Tolkien's decision, I was just pointing out that it's not quite as clear cut as could be hoped, and it might be good to salvage most of A somehow for the sake of added detail.

As to "minlamad thent / estent," my primary problem is that it seems to have no sure translation in the later Sindarin. Also, I doubt the form would have been retained as such, especially as Tolkien himself did not use it in B. I will try and look into it more, and see if I can trace it's etymology to anything coherent. In any case, I'd say the surest thing is to simply avoid naming it outright.

On Andróg: Well, Findegil, I think you’ve come up with some very intriguing ideas here! Personally, I rather like the idea of Andróg as a member of Hurin’s band. Unfortunately (and I think you predicted I would say this), I fear it goes a bit too far and entails too much supposition to be justifiable within this project. Perhaps if I lay out the inferences and revisions inolved in your proposal I can better make my point:

1. We have to interpret “In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear” to assert that Andróg was a member of Hurin’s band at Nargothrond.

2. We change the ‘Narn’ so that Andróg does not die at Amon Rudh.

3. We move Beleg’s healing of Andróg from the place where it stands in the ‘Narn’ to after the battle.

4. We add to our ‘Ruin of Doriath’ text mention of Andróg being one of Hurin’s band.

5. We change the slayer of Mîm from Hurin to Andróg.

6. We assume (implicitly) that Andróg is killed by an arrow at some future point.

When I look at all that’s involved, it seems clear to me that this solution, as nice as it is, is too speculative for us. First of all, I don’t think that point 1 is at all clear-cut. It is certainly a very fascinating statement by Tolkien, and I’m grateful to you for pointing out it’s possible implications. But is Andróg as a member of Hurin’s band really the only way to read it? ‘In this way’ could, I think, be read as referring more generally to what was said before – i.e., that Dirhavel ‘gathered all the tidings and lore that he could of the House of Hador, whether among Men or Elves, remnants and fugitives of Dorlómin, of Nargothrond, or of Doriath.’ Or one could read it as implying that Andvír, rather than Andróg, was with Hurin.

Moreover, even if there were no ambiguity in point 1, the implementation of that change in points 2-6 might involve more speculation than we are allowed. In other words, even if we accept that Tolkien decided Andróg was one of Hurin’s followers, I think a good argument could be made that this falls under 2b in our principles:



Indeed, I’m still not completely convinced that even the statement that Andróg survived the battle doesn’t fall into that category.

You also make an interesting observation about the recurrence of the motif of the traitor to Turin being killed by an arrow. But, though I think this too is an astute observation, what then do we make of the alternative form of Andróg’s curse (‘May he lack a bow at need ere his end’)? Also, there is no suggestion anywhere that Andróg himself is the one who kills the Dwarf, even if we consider Andróg’s curse a ‘source text’ for the death of Mîm (which is a bit of a stretch).

So in the end, I think that while your idea itself is great, it is not suitable for our project. On the smaller matter of whether Andróg survives Amon Rudh at all, I think we are in safer territory. I am still not entirely convinced on this point, though. What bothers me is that when it was written, Mîm’s curse was clearly supposed to be fulfilled during the attack on Amon Rudh. Having Andróg survive that battle doesn’t contradict the letter of the curse, but it does retroactively change the import of the curse from what it was when that part of the narrative was written. That’s not necessarily sufficient reason to reject Andróg’s survival, but it at least ought to be considered.

If I had to make a decision, I suppose I would vote against the revision that incorporates Andróg into Hurin’s company but for the less drastic revision that has him survive Amon Rudh (in spite of my reservations).

I don't think having Andróg survive is a valid idea. Regarding the convoluted story of the "curse," Tolkien seems to have decided at the very least that Andróg was to die on Amon Rudh. I would agree with the suggestion of having Andvír be in Húrin's band.

If I may, I suggest that we use the alternate version of Andróg's curse, and note that Mîm "reached about for a weapon, but found none" when Húrin kills him, or something to that effect.