[lord of dor-lomin]

I don't see how any were saved, specifically. Whose lives are you talking about?

The elves of the havens, the men that came to the west, the elves of Ossirland, and every other man and elf that was living behind the battle lines (which means pretty much everyone). That is, unless you say that the Valar would've intervened had Morgoth started attacking innocents, but in that case, didn't you say that overthrowing him would have apocolyptic consequences because he hadn't been weakened yet?

Once again, I believe it was the destiny of the Noldor, the will of Eru, that they challenge Morgoth, protecting the world for a while and enriching the lives of men and in the end spreading Morgoth's power thin enough for him to be defeated. When that's the Noldor's doom, and the deck is stacked against them, I'd think it'd be easier to forgive them.

You think the Noldor being in Beleriand allowed anyone to live freely?

Yes. The elves of Nevrast, the elves of the havens, and the elves of Ossirland would've been wiped out very quickly without the protection of the Noldor.

Yep. They benefited by waiting for the appropriate time to act.

You're right! They did benefit by waiting, but they only benefited because of the Noldor doing what they did in ME. It was the Noldor's destiny, and it shouldn't have been hindered by the Valar nor the Teleri. The Noldor's actions were a necessary part of Eru's plan. They were doing their part!

I just noticed that Saucepan Man made some of the points I'm trying to make, so I'll give allow you to read them again.

Obloquy argues that the Valar could not have defeated Melkor at the time he made off with the Silmarils, on the basis that he was too strong at that stage and it was not until he had expended his energy trying to subjugate ME

But, had the Noldor not followed Melkor, he would have run riot through ME, destroying the Elvish communities there (would the girdle of Melian have held forever?), and subjugating all Men to his will

By following him to ME, the Noldor were, as lord of dor-lomin has pointed out, able to keep him at bay for some 500 years, prevent Men falling under his thrall and, at the same time, raise their quality as a race.

Now, it might be said that, with Melkor running rampant through ME with no Noldor to hold him in check, the Valar would have moved sooner. But then they would have been taking him on while he was still strong

the damage to ME would, as Madhros has pointed out, been far more terrible and extensive than that caused by the War of Wrath

And even if the Valar held off from acting until much later, Melkor would not have been weakened by an almost perpetual state of warfare with the Noldor

So, is it not fair to say that the flight of the Noldor to Beleriand did actually bring about a good result in the end?

Quite possibly less loss of life, almost certainly less damage to Arda and the saving from domination by Melkor, and the improvement, of the three great Houses of Men.

Mr. Saucepan, I don't know if I can possibly say Amen enough times to your post.

[ March 04, 2003: Message edited by: lord of dor-lomin ]