The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum - View Single Post

HerenIstarion · 03-30-2004, 12:25 AM

Since we keep on repeating the same points all over with different wording, I'll try to pinpoint it all:

Changes in the Music (or freedom):

1. H-I - changes are allowed, but already contained in the Music all along, though fully percieved as such by Eru alone. All races of free will (Elves, Men and even Valar, though the latter are more bound by what each of them was singing before time), have freedom of choice in a likewise manner. Men's different freedom is mainly expressed in a way they die. Everything which happens within Arda is already in the Music. New things are brought into it by Eru, but are seen as new by His creatures, for Eru is omniscient and was aware of Himself going to put them in all along (even when he uses some creature as his tools)

2. davem - changes are allowed, and are totally new to the Music. Only Men are allowed to bring such a change about, whilst Valar and Eldar have only freedom of choice between different threads of the Music, which they aknowledge as threads of the Music and consciously choose between. Not everything which happens within Arda is already in the Music. Men (directly or indirectly, when, for instance, they force Eru to destroy Numenor) bring new things into it

If I has expressed your opinions erroneously, pray correct.

Well, opinions are similar in some ways, but there are differences as well. Why I believe my statements to be true as opposed to yours

is as follows:

1. Elves and Men are in themselves the change in Music. The mere fact of their existence is change in itself

2. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction made by Elves (like, hey, this oboe theme is more to my taste than that fiddle, let us follow it). They make their decisions according to their own wisdom, which is measured against standards equal for both Men and Elves. (see quote above)

3. There is no textual evidence of Valar conscious distinction after the Music is over. It is stated they 'just' sang along, and only after the were shown the vision, with a kind of an eye-opener the knew what they were singing was the World. Afterwards, they, just as elves and men, act according to their own wisdom (for instance, when Aule makes dwarves, or when Iavanna asks for Ents, realisation of "it must have been part of my song all along" comes only after the deed itself)

4. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction by Men, or aknowledging something like "oh, some drum solo would suit in this score nicely", they equally act according to their own wisdom

5. For entries 2-4,a s a summary - the way judgement is made is similar in all three cases, so logically extending it a bit, one has to conclude the kind of freedom each of the races posses are similar as well. The standard of Good and Evil they measure their choices against is one and the same (see quote above)

6. It is stated that Man and Elves are brethren, (even bodily the same, so the intercourse brings children), the only difference is made by Gift of Eru - i.e. Death, which frees Men from the confines of the world. i.e, inverting the statement, while they are alive, they are equally bound by confines of the world as elves are

7. Eru is stated to be the cause, and all else consequence. In case Men were able of bringing new things into being, the maxim is inverted (for instance, in case of Numenor), and Men are cause and Eru consequence, which is likewise never backed up by textual evidence (and, as far as my judgement reaches, impossible to be put into "consciously so [Christian- H-I] in the revision" piece of work

Now for Magic

H-I Magic (given such a name by ignorant, but not by the bearer him/herself) is part of innate abilities of some of M.E. inhabitants. As an ability it is neither good or bad in itself, but part of bearer's neture. Nature, in itself, is also neither good or bad in itself. "magical" character is defined as good or bad because of application he/she makes of his/her nature and abilities. As above, they have to be measured against uniform standard of Good and Evil, and if not in accordance with good, they are evil, still staying the part of bearer's nature

davem Magic is part of innate abilities of some of M.E. inhabitants. As an ability, it must be in accordance with bearer's nature, which is good. Bearer must conform the application of his abilities with his good-in-itself nature, otherwise he/she is evil.

Why do I believe my statement to express the truth:

1. It is stated the all matter is Arda is Marred, for Morgoth have put forward part of his will into it. Therefore, all the incarnates have their Nature tainted from the very beginning of their existence

2. Both kindreds of Children (Elves and Man) have committed Original Sin in the dawn of their history, which affected their Nature in the drastic way making it even less perfect to start with then it would have been if merely tainted by Morgoth element in its matter

3. If by Nature you meant their souls only, it is to be added that both elves and men percieved their true nature as union of the two (body (hroa) and soul (fëa)), and the body is not perfect to begin with

4 Not incarnate beings (such as Valar and Maiar), which do not have tainted bodies to begin with, so, it is to be assumed, their nature is perfect, are capable of becoming Evil. If their Nature be dominant factor of their actions, that would have been impossible. Therefore, again, what defines the being as good or evil, is its actions as measured agains standard of Good and Evil (given by Eru), and such a measurement is not nature in itself, but act of will.

To have a conclusion on both issues together:

The whole being of the World is defined by Music (and is material expression of one). Therefore, anything which is in the World (including any changes occurring), is bound to be part of the Music. Music (and Being) ultimately have their source in Eru, who, thus, is the cause of everything. Eru is omniscient, so anything in the Music (and the World) is not only caused, but also known by Him. The novelty is in the eye of the beholder.

Part of the Music (and the World) is moral code of Good and Evil, which is essential part of Freedom given by Eru to certain type of his creatures. (those to have souls (fëar) of Flame Imperishable) They are free in a way that they can choose either to conform to the standard or not (i.e either to obey Him or not). The act of choosing is act of will, further expressed in their actions.

Besides, all but Men are bound to exist only within the Music (World) until it lasts. Men are given the Gift of leaving it when parted with their bodies (i.e., when dying). While inside, they are bound by the same rules as everybody else

The World, as expression of the Music, is given being, and may be called Nature. Magic, as part of the World (and therefore Music, and therefore Nature), is innate ability, but as it is with all other abilities, is expressed on different levels with different individuals. As any other ability, it is not Good or Bad in itself, but can be used in a way not in accordance with the standard of Good and Evil (as everythig else natural, as it is). Therefore, as everything else, it may be used to express Freedom given by Eru, and to be Good or Evil

That is, more or less

03-30-2004, 12:25 AM	#78
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Since we keep on repeating the same points all over with different wording, I'll try to pinpoint it all: Changes in the Music (or freedom): 1. H-I - changes are allowed, but already contained in the Music all along, though fully percieved as such by Eru alone. All races of free will (Elves, Men and even Valar, though the latter are more bound by what each of them was singing before time), have freedom of choice in a likewise manner. Men's different freedom is mainly expressed in a way they die. Everything which happens within Arda is already in the Music. New things are brought into it by Eru, but are seen as new by His creatures, for Eru is omniscient and was aware of Himself going to put them in all along (even when he uses some creature as his tools) 2. davem - changes are allowed, and are totally new to the Music. Only Men are allowed to bring such a change about, whilst Valar and Eldar have only freedom of choice between different threads of the Music, which they aknowledge as threads of the Music and consciously choose between. Not everything which happens within Arda is already in the Music. Men (directly or indirectly, when, for instance, they force Eru to destroy Numenor) bring new things into it If I has expressed your opinions erroneously, pray correct. Well, opinions are similar in some ways, but there are differences as well. Why I believe my statements to be true as opposed to yours is as follows: 1. Elves and Men are in themselves the change in Music. The mere fact of their existence is change in itself 2. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction made by Elves (like, hey, this oboe theme is more to my taste than that fiddle, let us follow it). They make their decisions according to their own wisdom, which is measured against standards equal for both Men and Elves. (see quote above) 3. There is no textual evidence of Valar conscious distinction after the Music is over. It is stated they 'just' sang along, and only after the were shown the vision, with a kind of an eye-opener the knew what they were singing was the World. Afterwards, they, just as elves and men, act according to their own wisdom (for instance, when Aule makes dwarves, or when Iavanna asks for Ents, realisation of "it must have been part of my song all along" comes only after the deed itself) 4. There is no textual evidence of conscious distinction by Men, or aknowledging something like "oh, some drum solo would suit in this score nicely", they equally act according to their own wisdom 5. For entries 2-4,a s a summary - the way judgement is made is similar in all three cases, so logically extending it a bit, one has to conclude the kind of freedom each of the races posses are similar as well. The standard of Good and Evil they measure their choices against is one and the same (see quote above) 6. It is stated that Man and Elves are brethren, (even bodily the same, so the intercourse brings children), the only difference is made by Gift of Eru - i.e. Death, which frees Men from the confines of the world. i.e, inverting the statement, while they are alive, they are equally bound by confines of the world as elves are 7. Eru is stated to be the cause, and all else consequence. In case Men were able of bringing new things into being, the maxim is inverted (for instance, in case of Numenor), and Men are cause and Eru consequence, which is likewise never backed up by textual evidence (and, as far as my judgement reaches, impossible to be put into "consciously so [Christian- H-I] in the revision" piece of work Now for Magic H-I Magic (given such a name by ignorant, but not by the bearer him/herself) is part of innate abilities of some of M.E. inhabitants. As an ability it is neither good or bad in itself, but part of bearer's neture. Nature, in itself, is also neither good or bad in itself. "magical" character is defined as good or bad because of application he/she makes of his/her nature and abilities. As above, they have to be measured against uniform standard of Good and Evil, and if not in accordance with good, they are evil, still staying the part of bearer's nature davem Magic is part of innate abilities of some of M.E. inhabitants. As an ability, it must be in accordance with bearer's nature, which is good. Bearer must conform the application of his abilities with his good-in-itself nature, otherwise he/she is evil. Why do I believe my statement to express the truth: 1. It is stated the all matter is Arda is Marred, for Morgoth have put forward part of his will into it. Therefore, all the incarnates have their Nature tainted from the very beginning of their existence 2. Both kindreds of Children (Elves and Man) have committed Original Sin in the dawn of their history, which affected their Nature in the drastic way making it even less perfect to start with then it would have been if merely tainted by Morgoth element in its matter 3. If by Nature you meant their souls only, it is to be added that both elves and men percieved their true nature as union of the two (body (hroa) and soul (fëa)), and the body is not perfect to begin with 4 Not incarnate beings (such as Valar and Maiar), which do not have tainted bodies to begin with, so, it is to be assumed, their nature is perfect, are capable of becoming Evil. If their Nature be dominant factor of their actions, that would have been impossible. Therefore, again, what defines the being as good or evil, is its actions as measured agains standard of Good and Evil (given by Eru), and such a measurement is not nature in itself, but act of will. To have a conclusion on both issues together: The whole being of the World is defined by Music (and is material expression of one). Therefore, anything which is in the World (including any changes occurring), is bound to be part of the Music. Music (and Being) ultimately have their source in Eru, who, thus, is the cause of everything. Eru is omniscient, so anything in the Music (and the World) is not only caused, but also known by Him. The novelty is in the eye of the beholder. Part of the Music (and the World) is moral code of Good and Evil, which is essential part of Freedom given by Eru to certain type of his creatures. (those to have souls (fëar) of Flame Imperishable) They are free in a way that they can choose either to conform to the standard or not (i.e either to obey Him or not). The act of choosing is act of will, further expressed in their actions. Besides, all but Men are bound to exist only within the Music (World) until it lasts. Men are given the Gift of leaving it when parted with their bodies (i.e., when dying). While inside, they are bound by the same rules as everybody else The World, as expression of the Music, is given being, and may be called Nature. Magic, as part of the World (and therefore Music, and therefore Nature), is innate ability, but as it is with all other abilities, is expressed on different levels with different individuals. As any other ability, it is not Good or Bad in itself, but can be used in a way not in accordance with the standard of Good and Evil (as everythig else natural, as it is). Therefore, as everything else, it may be used to express Freedom given by Eru, and to be Good or Evil That is, more or less __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time! Last edited by HerenIstarion; 03-30-2004 at 01:02 AM.