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Old 08-26-2003, 03:48 AM   #20
Findegil
King's Writer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Sting

Aiwendil wrote:
Quote:
Was it JRRT? I was under the impression it was Christopher.
I have to look that up. What I wrote was the impression left in my memory and could be wrong. At least it could be to specific - the indication that JRR Tolkien was not satisfaid by the version of Q30 could have been a large X on the text or a "that won't do". But even that is not sure. I will search for it.

Posted by Aiwendil:
Quote:
But it seems likely that had they gone with him, they would have prevented him from slaying himself. In all versions of the story, Hurin goes forth alone, and slays himself alone. To me this seems to be a critical point.
That is clearly a weak spot. But I think it is more probable that Húrin left them a second time, as he had done to find Gondolin, other than the outlaws by thier own forswear the treasure.
Let's try that out:
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Then were {Urin's}[Húrin's] words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: "What meanest thou, child of Men, and wherefore upbraidest thou me?" Long did I foster thy son and forgave him the evil of his deeds, and afterward thy wife I succoured, giving way against my counsel to her wild desires. {Melko}[Morgoth] it is that hates thee and not I. Yet what is it to me -- and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalie? Lo! in {Palisor}[Cúivenen /?spellling/] my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, 0 {Urin}[Húrin], for {Melko}[Morgoth] hath bewitched thee, and take thy riches with thee" -- but he forebore to slay or to bind {Urin}[Húrin] in spells, remembering his ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.
Then Urin departed[ with his man], but would not touch the gold, {and stricken
in years he reached Hisilome and died among Men, but}and some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men./Q30/[ But] his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.
I toke the main body of the text out of the Tale of The Nauglafring. Unless changes of names and the addition of Húrins fate, I only inserted "with his man" in the last paragraph.
I think that would work, to let the fate of Asgon and his man dubious, but I see Meadhros point:
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As we can see, in both cases, the outlaws die by cause of the curse of the Gold. If we keep their faith uncertain, we move IMO, away from the core of the Story.
So I will try out my own risky plot:
In the Quote abvoe we will leave out "with his man". (In my view on this spot should be a chapter brake , and for that I added Thingol in the next sentence, but that's not now the point.)
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{'Behold then,' said Ailios, 'in}[In] great grief gazed {the }king [Thingol] upon {Urin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, and he was weary for the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth] that thus deceived all hearts; yet tells the tale that so potent were the spells that {Mim the fatherless}[Mîm] had woven about that hoard that, even as it lay upon the floor of the king's halls shining strangely in the light of the torches that burnt there, already were all who looked upon it touched by its subtle evil.
Now therefore did those of {Urin's}[Húrin's] band murmur, and one said to the king: "Lo, lord, our captain {Urin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain."
Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol], for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: "Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the {Rodothlim}[people of Finarfin/I couldn't find any better phrase to specifie the Elves of Nargothrond/] who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only {Urin}[Húrin] by reason of his son Turin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Turin is dead and {Urin}[Húrin] will have none of it; and Turin was my man."
At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: "Get ye now gone, and seek not 0 foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of {Valinor}[the Eldar] find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace."
Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk did as they were bid, and yet more, for some went into the hoard twice and thrice, and angry cries were raised in that hall. Then would the woodland Elves hinder them of their thieving, and a great dissension arose, so that {though }the king {would}[had to] stay them{ none heeded him. ...}/Here the risky part beginns and the rest of the fight in the hall has to go./[. So the outlaws left Menegroth, with a part of the treasure but soon/editorial addition/] the curse [of Mîm] came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Hurin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road/Q30/[.]
The addition I had to make with out source is beyond what you normaly call "minimal change", so it was much less heavy than I had feared for. As we already thought, it is a risky course. I could have cut more of the scene and aviode the change of Thingol stopping the dissension. But I like the working of crouse upon Elves in the hall.
In addition I like to mention, that I can't think that a man like Asgon took part in the events in Thingols hall. It is clearly not Asgon how speaks to the king of Húrin as a "old and mad" man. That words sound more like Ragnir. The young man how is the opponent of Asgon in the conversations when the band is searching Húrin. It would be very nice to find a way, to make Asgons fate dubious, but in the moment I can't see any solution within the rules of the project. (In my privat view he is the comunicater of parts of the Narn.)

Respectfully
Findegil
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