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Galin · 01-15-2018, 10:43 AM

I think it's possible (wow, going out on a limb there) that at least as late as the 1937 Silmarillion, the sinking of Beleriand left the Isle of England. The text refers to the "great isles" which were fashioned of ancient Beleriand, and that some of the Eldalie lingered "especially in the Western Isles and in the Land of Leithian."

In earlier texts at least, Leithian was England. Granted, we are not here in a post Lord of the Rings imagining, but on the other hand, Tolkien himself never really (fully) updated these later sections of QS, and Christopher Tolkien describes the problems with figuring out Tolkien's conception of the drowning of Beleriand (which at one point also included that Beleriand be destroyed, or at least more fully destroyed, at the drowning of Numenor).

Anyway, none of that necessarily means much. To my mind JRRT abandoned that England (and Ireland?) were left from Old Beleriand (I think he also abandoned the idea of "Himling" and Tol Fuin too), and the arguably old idea might just be saying more about the measure of destruction to Beleriand than about its size. If I recall correctly, I think KW Fonstad suggested a scale of miles relative to the map in The Lord of the Rings, based on her opinion -- not that it's Tolkien's opinion of course, but I recall once using something to try and figure out if Tol Galen survived, if not as an isle at least as part of Lindon.

I guess I'm almost saying, that in a post Lord of the Rings context, on paper at least, we don't have much to go on as far as authorial revision or updating here. I tend to think though, if Tolkien at one point imagined the actual offspring of the Valar taking part in the Wrathy War, he might not have objected to at least some of the Maiar going with Eonwe (to put it weakly). Also, I think one post-Lord of the Rings "survival" is Tol Morwen, at least within a legendary context.

Treebeard, for example, doesn't appear to think Tol Fuin exists (Dorthonion being under the waves), though granted he might not know, or such a footnote just doesn't flow well within a nice chant. Still, for whatever reason, no Himling or Tol Fuin ever made it on to any map published while JRRT himself was alive...

... including the revised edition map, and the map by Pauline Baynes, which JRRT himself helped with (or whatever, with respect to proper grammar).

01-15-2018, 10:43 AM	#17
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,031	I think it's possible (wow, going out on a limb there) that at least as late as the 1937 Silmarillion, the sinking of Beleriand left the Isle of England. The text refers to the "great isles" which were fashioned of ancient Beleriand, and that some of the Eldalie lingered "especially in the Western Isles and in the Land of Leithian." In earlier texts at least, Leithian was England. Granted, we are not here in a post Lord of the Rings imagining, but on the other hand, Tolkien himself never really (fully) updated these later sections of QS, and Christopher Tolkien describes the problems with figuring out Tolkien's conception of the drowning of Beleriand (which at one point also included that Beleriand be destroyed, or at least more fully destroyed, at the drowning of Numenor). Anyway, none of that necessarily means much. To my mind JRRT abandoned that England (and Ireland?) were left from Old Beleriand (I think he also abandoned the idea of "Himling" and Tol Fuin too), and the arguably old idea might just be saying more about the measure of destruction to Beleriand than about its size. If I recall correctly, I think KW Fonstad suggested a scale of miles relative to the map in The Lord of the Rings, based on her opinion -- not that it's Tolkien's opinion of course, but I recall once using something to try and figure out if Tol Galen survived, if not as an isle at least as part of Lindon. I guess I'm almost saying, that in a post Lord of the Rings context, on paper at least, we don't have much to go on as far as authorial revision or updating here. I tend to think though, if Tolkien at one point imagined the actual offspring of the Valar taking part in the Wrathy War, he might not have objected to at least some of the Maiar going with Eonwe (to put it weakly). Also, I think one post-Lord of the Rings "survival" is Tol Morwen, at least within a legendary context. Treebeard, for example, doesn't appear to think Tol Fuin exists (Dorthonion being under the waves), though granted he might not know, or such a footnote just doesn't flow well within a nice chant. Still, for whatever reason, no Himling or Tol Fuin ever made it on to any map published while JRRT himself was alive... ... including the revised edition map, and the map by Pauline Baynes, which JRRT himself helped with (or whatever, with respect to proper grammar).