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Faramir Jones · 05-12-2015, 06:38 AM

In Unfinished Tales, in the essay 'The Battles of the Fords of Isen', it is stated that Théoden's health 'began to fail...early in the year 3014', when he was 66. The narrator said that 'his malady may thus have been due to natural causes, though the Rohirrim commonly lived till near or beyond their eightieth year. But it may well have been induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Gríma'.

The narrator then goes on to say that Théoden's 'sense of weakness and dependence' on Gríma was 'largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counsellor's suggestions'.

It could perhaps be argued that Théoden's weakening from 3014 onwards was part of Saruman's long-term strategy to destroy Rohan. There is no indication, even among Eomer and Théodred, that Saruman was anything other than a neighbouring ally, if one who had declared his independence from Gondor. Only when Gandalf escaped from Orthanc in September 3018 and began to alert people was it known that Saruman was an enemy.

We need to remember that in 2759 Saruman entered into Isengard with the premission of Ruling Steward Beren, who felt he would be suitable, being the head of the White Council opposed to Sauron. He was subject, if nominally, to Gondorian overlordship.

In LotR, in the chapter 'The Council of Elrond', Gandalf spoke about his discovery of the scroll written by Isildur, in the archives of Minas Tirith. He gave some background, saying that in 'former days' members of his order 'had been well received' in Gondor, 'but Saruman most of all....Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City'. Denethor II showed Gandalf 'Less welcome than of old', and 'grudgingly' permitted him to search among the archives.

Saruman therefore visited Minas Tirith in the past, and was a guest of the Stewards. Perhaps, in his journey to the City, he also called on the King of Rohan, as it would have been deeply impolite for him to have crossed Rohan without doing so. Perhaps he paid personal calls on any new Steward and King, in order to keep up his personal relationships with both states, and to reassure them of what he said he was doing.

The issue is whether he continued this when Denethor II succeeded as steward, and Théoden as king, which happened in 2984 and 2980 respectively. A few decades previously, in 2953, he took advantage of Sauron's return to Mordor to declare his independence. Such an act would have led to a cooling of relations between him and Gondor and Rohan, even though they could do nothing to stop it.

I don't consider it likely that he met Denethor and Théoden after 2953, although he may have sent messages to both to try and patch things up, perhaps after both had succeeded their respective fathers. Perhaps such a message to Théoden was the one referred to when he said to the latter: 'Long ago I offered you a state beyond your merit and your wit'.

05-12-2015, 06:38 AM	#11
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	A few things In Unfinished Tales, in the essay 'The Battles of the Fords of Isen', it is stated that Théoden's health 'began to fail...early in the year 3014', when he was 66. The narrator said that 'his malady may thus have been due to natural causes, though the Rohirrim commonly lived till near or beyond their eightieth year. But it may well have been induced or increased by subtle poisons, administered by Gríma'. The narrator then goes on to say that Théoden's 'sense of weakness and dependence' on Gríma was 'largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counsellor's suggestions'. It could perhaps be argued that Théoden's weakening from 3014 onwards was part of Saruman's long-term strategy to destroy Rohan. There is no indication, even among Eomer and Théodred, that Saruman was anything other than a neighbouring ally, if one who had declared his independence from Gondor. Only when Gandalf escaped from Orthanc in September 3018 and began to alert people was it known that Saruman was an enemy. We need to remember that in 2759 Saruman entered into Isengard with the premission of Ruling Steward Beren, who felt he would be suitable, being the head of the White Council opposed to Sauron. He was subject, if nominally, to Gondorian overlordship. In LotR, in the chapter 'The Council of Elrond', Gandalf spoke about his discovery of the scroll written by Isildur, in the archives of Minas Tirith. He gave some background, saying that in 'former days' members of his order 'had been well received' in Gondor, 'but Saruman most of all....Often he had been for long the guest of the Lords of the City'. Denethor II showed Gandalf 'Less welcome than of old', and 'grudgingly' permitted him to search among the archives. Saruman therefore visited Minas Tirith in the past, and was a guest of the Stewards. Perhaps, in his journey to the City, he also called on the King of Rohan, as it would have been deeply impolite for him to have crossed Rohan without doing so. Perhaps he paid personal calls on any new Steward and King, in order to keep up his personal relationships with both states, and to reassure them of what he said he was doing. The issue is whether he continued this when Denethor II succeeded as steward, and Théoden as king, which happened in 2984 and 2980 respectively. A few decades previously, in 2953, he took advantage of Sauron's return to Mordor to declare his independence. Such an act would have led to a cooling of relations between him and Gondor and Rohan, even though they could do nothing to stop it. I don't consider it likely that he met Denethor and Théoden after 2953, although he may have sent messages to both to try and patch things up, perhaps after both had succeeded their respective fathers. Perhaps such a message to Théoden was the one referred to when he said to the latter: 'Long ago I offered you a state beyond your merit and your wit'.