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Fordim Hedgethistle · 09-07-2004, 08:23 AM

I think that Bilbo is indeed an interesting character in this regard -- as he is in so many others.

I think the obvious pairing would be between Bilbo and Frodo, in the ways identified by SpM (welcome back!), but also think that there is a lot of value in Encaitare's suggestion that we can compare Bilbo to Gollum.

I'd like to combine these two, though, and compare the set pairs of Bilbo/Gollum to Bilbo/Frodo. It's not that there's a single set of character-character relations (that is Bilbo=Frodo) but that the relationship betwee Bilbo and Gollum is reflected in the relationship of Frodo and Gollum. Bilbo met and overcame Gollum in the relatively simple monster/adventure story of The Hobbit, and so their relationship is fairly straightforward: good guy defeats bad guy. This is how Frodo's relationship with Gollum begins, but as their relationship develops and grows they both begin to realise that its just not that simple: they are partners with and to one another through the Ring. Their relationship is like the Bilbo/Gollum one but it becomes more complex the more like Gollum Frodo becomes under the influence of the Ring, and the lmore like Frodo Gollum becomes under the influence of Frodo.

In a way, the difference between The Hobbit and LotR is defined by the the difference in these relationships. What's interesting about this comparison is the fact that in TH the relatively 'simple' adversarial relation of Bilbo and Gollum is appropriate to the story of the hero's triumph. In LotR, though, it's this same adversarial, either/or way of thinking that is the problem with and in the relationship of Frodo and Gollum. And what's interesting about this is that this either/or way of thinking the divides Frodo and Gollum is promulgated by the Ring (they both want it, they can't both have it; Frodo is out to destroy it, Gollum wants to preserve it) and by Sam, who perceives Gollum in a Bilbo way, right to the end (almost).

So, the Gollum/Frodo relationship is the more 'grown up' or thematically 'mature' version of the Bilbo/Gollum relationship. It's the culmination of an evolutionary movement from one kind or version of heroism (i.e. the monster is defeated) to an other (i.e. the monster is ot monstrous but a shadowy echo of the hero; the hero forbears victory over the monster who is 'defeated' in the end, by his own success -- Gollum, after all, gets the Ring back).

09-07-2004, 08:23 AM	#23
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,851	I think that Bilbo is indeed an interesting character in this regard -- as he is in so many others. I think the obvious pairing would be between Bilbo and Frodo, in the ways identified by SpM (welcome back!), but also think that there is a lot of value in Encaitare's suggestion that we can compare Bilbo to Gollum. I'd like to combine these two, though, and compare the set pairs of Bilbo/Gollum to Bilbo/Frodo. It's not that there's a single set of character-character relations (that is Bilbo=Frodo) but that the relationship betwee Bilbo and Gollum is reflected in the relationship of Frodo and Gollum. Bilbo met and overcame Gollum in the relatively simple monster/adventure story of The Hobbit, and so their relationship is fairly straightforward: good guy defeats bad guy. This is how Frodo's relationship with Gollum begins, but as their relationship develops and grows they both begin to realise that its just not that simple: they are partners with and to one another through the Ring. Their relationship is like the Bilbo/Gollum one but it becomes more complex the more like Gollum Frodo becomes under the influence of the Ring, and the lmore like Frodo Gollum becomes under the influence of Frodo. In a way, the difference between The Hobbit and LotR is defined by the the difference in these relationships. What's interesting about this comparison is the fact that in TH the relatively 'simple' adversarial relation of Bilbo and Gollum is appropriate to the story of the hero's triumph. In LotR, though, it's this same adversarial, either/or way of thinking that is the problem with and in the relationship of Frodo and Gollum. And what's interesting about this is that this either/or way of thinking the divides Frodo and Gollum is promulgated by the Ring (they both want it, they can't both have it; Frodo is out to destroy it, Gollum wants to preserve it) *and* by Sam, who perceives Gollum in a Bilbo way, right to the end (almost). So, the Gollum/Frodo relationship is the more 'grown up' or thematically 'mature' version of the Bilbo/Gollum relationship. It's the culmination of an evolutionary movement from one kind or version of heroism (i.e. the monster is defeated) to an other (i.e. the monster is ot monstrous but a shadowy echo of the hero; the hero forbears victory over the monster who is 'defeated' in the end, by his own success -- Gollum, after all, gets the Ring back). __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.