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Old 08-30-2017, 02:38 PM   #25
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Findegil is a guest of Tom Bombadil.
CE-EX-30: First the easy stuff: Omar. You are right I did forget that I skipped him from 2, So he has to be skipped here as well.
It is interesting that you are so enthusiastic about taking up the description of the mansions of the Valar in chapter 2 but here are so much against including the weapon taking. We have to think what we are dealing with here: A story told by the Valar to the Elves and then handed down probably by many steps through mannish and hobbitish hands. How do we think the Valar would tell the story of this early war? Most probably in a picturesque symbolical way that would be understandable to the Children of Ilúvatar. And in addition, is these description so much of the tone, seeing the late tale of Tuor:
And the wave came towards him, and upon it lay a mist of shadow. Then suddenly as it drew near it curled, and broke, and rushed forward in long arms of foam; but where it had broken there stood dark against the rising storm a living shape of great height and majesty.
Then Tuor bowed in reverence, for it seemed to him that he beheld a mighty king. A tall crown he wore like silver, from which his long hair fell down as foam glimmering in the dusk and as he cast back the grey mantle that hung about him like a mist, behold! he was clad in a gleaming coat, close-fitted as the mail of mighty fish, and in a kirtle of deep green that flashed and flickered with sea-fire as he strode slowly towards the land. In this manner the Dweller of the Deep, whom the Noldor name Ulmo, Lord of Waters, showed himself to Tuor son of Huor of the House of Hador beneath Vinyamar.
CE-EX-39: 7. When I read what is left, it is only Melkor who realised what had happend. But Tolkiens text tends in my point of to both Manwë and Melkor realizing it. Probabaly it is helpful to give this passage as edited by me in plain text:
Manwë told him and he himself suddenly realized that this had happened: he 'dispersed'.
8. Yes, my criticism was to hard here. I see now your reasons. I agree to join the sentences. But I still have some doubts about changing the tense. If we see Middle-earth as an imaginary past not as an imaginary space (as Tolkien clearly did), then the past tense would only be necessary if all Melkor ingredient would have been cleaned. For me the use of ‘will’ here does show that Tolkien didn’t thought it was.
15. As I said the reason is clear, but the way you dealed with it, is rather blocked in my opinion. I am inclined just to remove the square brackets.
16. Okay, I agree on the two change {which}[this], but we will keep ‘kind of’.
18. Oaky, then we will keep it.
19. Yes, I can follow your argument about ‘status quo’. What about changing it to ‘present state’?

CE-EX-45: ‘Now a court was set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and Melkor arraigned before all the Valar great and lesser and before the silver chair of Manwë.’ That doesn’t sound right form. Are you sure that is what you would like?

CE-EX-56: I agree that the speaker were not ‘new-come’, but both Finwë and Elwë speak about the experience and thoughts of the first Elves, not of their own. Therefore I think the ‘new’ in ‘new-come’ should stand.
What follows is a slightly amended draft as proposed by ArcusCalion. I will comment on the changes I introduce in comparison to the one that ArcusCalion below. Overall I am okay with the rearnagement.
CE-EX-57 <AAm §57 Then befell the first sundering of the Elvenfolk. For the kindred of Ingwë, and the most part of the kindreds of Finwë and Olwë, were swayed by the words of their lords, and were willing to depart and follow Oromë.> This they did of their free will, and yet were swayed by the majesty of the {Gods}[Valar], ere their own wisdom was full grown. The Elves that obeyed the summons and followed the three kings are called the Eldar, by the name that Oromë gave them; for he was their guide and led them at the last unto Valinor. CE-EX-58{Yet there were many who preferred the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumour of the glory of the Trees, and they remained behind. These are called the Avari, the Unwilling.} <AAm But the kindreds of Morwë and Nurwë were unwilling and refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumour of the Trees. Now these dwelt furthest from the waters of {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen], and wandered in the hills, and they had not seen Oromë at his first coming, and of the Valar they knew no more than shapes and rumours of wrath and power as they marched to war. And mayhap the lies of Melkor concerning Oromë and Nahar (that above were recalled) lived still among them, so that they feared him as a demon that would devour them. These are the Avari, the Unwilling, and they were sundered in that time from the Eldar, and met never again until many ages were past.> CE-EX-58.3 <Q&E This name, evidently made by the Eldar at the time of the Separation, is found in histories in the Quenya form Avari, and the Telerin form Abari. It was still used by the historians of the Exiled Noldor, though it hardly differed from Moriquendi, which CE-EX-58.4{(see above) }was no longer used by the Exiles to include Elves of Eldarin origin. The plural Evair was known to Sindarin loremasters, but was no longer in use. Such Avari as came into Beleriand wereCE-EX-58.5{, as has been said,} called Morben, or Mornedhel.>
§24 The Eldar prepared now a great march … and behind him the Eldalië were arrayed in three hosts.
§25 The smallest host and the first to set forth was led by Ingwë, the most high lord of all the Elvish race. He entered into Valinor and sits at the feet of the Powers, and all Elves revere his name; but he has never returned nor looked again upon Middle-earth. The {Lindar [> }Vanyar{]} were his folk, fairest of the Quendi; they are the High Elves, and the beloved of Manwë and Varda, and few Men have spoken with them.
§26 Next came the Noldor, a name of wisdom. CE-EX-62.5{[footnote to the text: The Gnomes they may be called in our tongue, quoth Ælfwine. (The word that he uses is Witan. More is said of this matter in the Tenth Chapter where the tale speaks of the Edain.)]} They are the Deep Elves, and the friends of Aulë. Their lord was Finwë, wisest of all the children of the world. His kindred are renowned in song, for they fought and laboured long and grievously in the northern lands of old. CE-EX-63 <LQ; Ch. 3; Note to §19 Dark is their hue and grey are their eyes>.
§27 The greatest host came last, … The Sea-elves therefore they became in Valinor, the {Soloneldi [> }Falmari{]}, for they made music beside the breaking waves. Two lords they had, for their numbers were very great: Elwë Singollo, which signifies Greymantle, and Olwë his brother. The hair of Olwë was long and white, and his eyes were blue; but the hair of Elwë was grey as silver, and his eyes were as stars; he was the tallest of all the Elven-folk.
§29 These are the chief peoples of the Eldalië, … These the Kalaquendi CE-EX-66 called {the Alamanyar [> Umanyar], since they came never to the Land of Aman and the Blessed Realm. But the Alamanyar [> Umanyar] and the Avari alike they name} the Moriquendi, Elves of the Darkness, for they never beheld the light before the Sun and Moon. CE-EX-68{The Alamanyar [> Umanyar] were … into Beleriand ere the rising of the Moon.} CE-EX-67<Q&E In the period of Exile the Noldor modified their use of these terms, which was offensive to the Sindar. … was represented by the new terms Amanyar 'those of Aman', and Uamanyar or Umanyar 'those not of Aman', beside the longer forms Amaneldi and Umaneldi.>
CE-EX-69<AAm And they began their long journey … turned back and are forgotten.
{ 1115.
}§59 Long and slow was the March … until he returned to guide them.
§60 And it came to pass that CE-SL-21{after ten Years of journeying in this manner (which is to say in such a time as we now should reckon well nigh a century of our years)} the Eldar passed through a forest, and came to a great river, wider and broader than any that they yet had seen, and beyond it were mountains whose sharp horns seemed to pierce the realm of the stars.
§61 This river, it is said, … Teleri looked upon the shadowy heights and were afraid.
§62 Then one arose in the host of Olwë, which was ever hindmost on the march, and his name was CE-EX-70{Nano}[Lenwe] (or {Dân}[Denweg] in the tongue of his own people). And he forsook the westward march, and led away a numerous folk, and they went south down the River, and passed out of the knowledge of the Eldar until long years were over. These were the Nandor.>
§30 Others there were also of the Teleri that remained in Middle-earth. These were the Elves of Beleriand in the west of the Northern lands. They came from the host of Elwë the Grey. He was lost in the woods and many of his folk sought him long in vain; and thus when their kindred departed over Sea they were left behind and went not into the West. Therefore they are called the Sindar, the Grey Elves, but themselves they named {Eglath}[ Egladrim], the Forsaken. CE-EX-75 <Q&E Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya.> Elwë after became their king, mightiest of all the {Alamanyar [correction to }Umanyar{ missed]}. He it was who was called Thingol in the language of Doriath. CE-EX-61 <Q&E [i]
The Clan-names,
with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar.

CE-EX-59 <Q&E There {also }existed two old compounds containing *kwendi:
*kala-kwendi and *mori-kwendi, the Light-folk and the Dark- folk. … But already before the final separation *mori-kwendi may have referred to the glooms and the clouds dimming CE-EX-60 {the sun and }the stars during the War of the Valar and Melkor, so that the term from the beginning had a tinge of scorn, implying that such folk were not averse to the shadows of Melkor upon Middle-earth.
The lineal descendants … and had also acquired far greater knowledge and powers by their association with the Valar and Maiar.>
CE-EX-60.3 <Q&E Associated with these compounds were the two old words Calben (Celbin) and Morben (Moerbin). CE-EX-60.4{On the formal relation of these to Quenya Kalaquendi and Moriquendi see p. 362.} They had no reference to Elves, … may have been justified CE-EX-60.5{; but the only case recorded in the histories is that of Maeglin, … For that Turin smote him in the king's hall}.
This resentment on the part of the Avari is illustrated by the history of {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] *kwendi. … as compared with the Avari CE-EX-60.6{(see p. 381)}. The Avarin forms cited by the Loremasters were: … Men (Easterlings) that appeared before the Battle of the Nirnaeth. CE-EX-60.7[Reference to the last footnote] If in Sindarin an Avar, as distinct from other kinds of Morben, was intended, he was called Mornedhel.>
In Quenya form the names of the three great Clans were Vanyar, {Ñoldor}Noldor, and Lindar. The oldest of these names was Lindar, which certainly goes back to days before the Separation. The other two probably arose in the same period, if somewhat later: their original forms may thus be given in {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] as *wanjā, *ñgolodō, and lindā /glindā.[footnote: For the late {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] gl- as an initial variation of l- see General Phonology. Though this Clan-name has *glind- in Sindarin, the g- does not appear in Amanya Telerin, nor in Nandorin, so that in this case it may be an addition in Sindarin, which favoured and much increased initial groups of this kind.]
According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar, the Three Clans were in the beginning derived from the three Elf-fathers: Imin, Tata, and Enel (sc. One, Two, Three), and those whom each chose to join his following. So they had at first simply the names Minyar 'Firsts', Tatyar 'Seconds', and Nelyar 'Thirds'. These numbered, out of the original 144 Elves that first awoke, 14, 56, and 74; and these proportions were approximately maintained until the Separation.
It is said that of the small clan of the Minyar none became Avari. The Tatyar were evenly divided. The Nelyar were most reluctant to leave their lakeside homes; but they were very cohesive, and very conscious of the separate unity of their Clan (as they continued to be), so that when it became clear that their chieftains Elwë and Olwë were resolved to depart and would have a large following, many of those among them who had at first joined the Avari went over to the Eldar rather than be separated from their kin. The Ñoldor indeed asserted that most of the 'Teleri' were at heart Avari, and that only the Eglain really regretted being left in Beleriand.
According to the Ñoldorin historians the proportions, out of 144, that when the March began became Avari or Eldar were approximately so:
Minyar 14: Avari 0 Eldar 14
Tatyar 56: Avari 28 Eldar 28
Nelyar 74: Avari 28 Eldar 46 > Amanyar Teleri 20;
Sinda and Nandor 26
In the result the Noldor were the largest clan of Elves in Aman; while the Elves that remained in Middle-earth (the Moriquendi in the Quenya of Aman) outnumbered the Amanyar in the proportion of 82 to 62.
How far the descriptive Clan-names, *wanjā, *ñgolodō, and *lindā were preserved … whom they accused of arrogance.
This ill-feeling descended … that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.> CE-EX-62 <Q&E
This name was probably given to the First Clan by the Noldor. They accepted it, but continued to call themselves most often by their old numerical name Minyar (since the whole of this clan had joined the Eldar and reached Aman). … Indis of the Vanyar.
Vanyar thus comes … Vána wife of Oromë.
Since the Lindar … where the First Clan (in lore and history only) were called Miniel, pl. Mínil.> CE-EX-64 <Q&E
This name was probably older than Vanyar, and may have been made before the March. … clan throughout their later history.
The name meant 'the Wise', … for technical skills.
The variant forms of the name: {Q}[Quenya] Ñoldo, {T}[Telerin] Goldo, {S}[Sindarin] Golodh (Ngolodh), indicate a {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] original *ñgolodō. This is a derivative of the stem *NGOL 'knowledge, wisdom, lore'. This is seen in {Q}[Quenya] ñóle 'long study (of any subject)', iñgole 'lore', ingolmo 'loremaster'. In {T}[Telerin] góle, engole had the same senses as in {Q}[Quenya] but were used most often of the special 'lore' possessed by the Ñoldor. In {S}[Sindarin] the word gûl (equivalent of {Q}[Quenya] ñóle) had less laudatory associations, being used mostly of secret knowledge, especially such as possessed by artificers who made wonderful things; and the word became further darkened by its frequent use in the compound morgul 'black arts', applied to the delusory or perilous arts and knowledge derived from {Morgoth}[Melkor].
Those indeed among the Sindar who were unfriendly to the Ñoldor attributed their supremacy in the arts and lore to their learning from Melkor{-Morgoth}. This was a falsehood, coming itself ultimately from {Morgoth}[Melkor]; though it was not without any foundation (as the lies of {Morgoth}[Melkor] seldom were). But the great gifts of the Ñoldor did not come from the teaching of Melkor. Fëanor the greatest of them all never had any dealings with Melkor in Aman, and was his greatest foe.> CE-EX-65 <Q&E
Lindar (Teleri)
These were, as has been seen, much the largest of the ancient clans. The name, … those that moved into the West became enamoured of the Sea. [footnote: For this reason the most frequently used of the 'titles' or secondary names of the Lindar was Nendili 'Water-lovers'.]
In Quenya, … cf. telma, which was often applied to the last item in a structure, such as a coping-stone, or a topmost pinnacle.]> CE-EX-71 <Q&E
This name must have been made at the time, in the latter days of the March, when certain groups of the Teleri gave up the March; and it was especially applied to the large following of Lenwe, [footnote: Lenwe is the form in which his name was remembered in Ñoldorin histories. His name was probably *Denwego, Nandorin Denweg. His son was the Nandorin chieftain Denethor. These names probably meant 'lithe-and-active' and 'lithe-and-lank', from *dene- 'thin and strong, pliant, lithe', and *thara- 'tall (or long) and slender'.] who refused to cross the Hithaeglir.
The name was often interpreted as 'Those who go back'; but in fact none of the Nandor appear to have returned, … Some of these finally entered Beleriand, CE-EX-72{not} long before the return of {Morgoth}[Melkor]. These were under the leadership of Denethor, son of DenwegCE-EX-72.2{[footnote: see Note 17]}. The old name Nandor was however only remembered by the Ñoldorin historians in Aman; … or by confusion with the name of their leader Denwaith.
This name they at first applied to the Nandor … made the eastern borders of the country of Lindon.
These names were however … and took as little part in the strife with {Morgoth}[Melkor] as they could. This name, {S}[Sindarin] Laegel, pl. Laegil, class-plural Laegrim or Laegel(d)rim, was given both because of the greenness of the land of Lindon, and because the Laegrim clothed themselves in green as an aid to secrecy. This term the Ñoldor translated into Quenya Laiquendi; but it was not much used.> CE-EX-76 <Q&E
}CE-EX-76.1 <Q&E The Sindar had no general name for themselves as distinct from other varieties of Elf, until other kinds entered Beleriand. The descendant of the old clan name *Lindai ({Q}[Quenya] Lindar) had fallen out of normal use, being no longer needed in a situation were all the Edhil were of the same kind, and people were more aware of the growing differences in speech and other matters between those sections of the Elves that lived in widely sundered parts of a large and mostly pathless land. They were thus in ordinary speech all Edhil, but some belonged to one region and some to another: they were Falathrim from the sea-board of West Beleriand, or Iathrim from Doriath (the land of the Fence, or iath), or Mithrim who had gone north from Beleriand and inhabited the regions about the great lake that afterwards bore their name.{[Reference to the last footnote]}
CE-EX-76.12 <Q&E Sindar{
}Less commonly the form Sindel, pl. Sindeldi, is also met in Exilic Quenya. This was the name given by the Exiled Ñoldor [footnote: Lake Mithrim, meaning originally 'Lake of the Mithrim'. Mithrim was a name given to them by the southern-dwellers, because of the cooler climate and greyer skies, and the mists of the North. It was probably because the Noldor first came into contact with this northerly branch that they gave in Quenya the name Sindar or Sindeldi 'Grey-elves' to all the Telerin inhabitants of the Westlands who spoke the Sindarin language.
Though this name was also later held to refer to Elwë's name Thingol (Sindikollo) 'Grey-cloak', since he was acknowledged as high-king of all the land and its peoples. It is said also that the folk of the North were clad much in grey, especially after the return of {Morgoth}[Melkor] when secrecy became needed; and the Mithrim had an art of weaving a grey cloth that made its wearers almost invisible in shadowy places or in a stony land.
This art was later used even in the southern lands as the dangers of the War increased.] to the second largest of the divisions of the Eldar. [footnote: {See above, p. 381. }The proportion, per 144, of the Eldar remaining in Middle-earth was reckoned at 26, of which about 8 were Nandor.] It was applied to all the Elves of Telerin origin that the Ñoldor found in Beleriand, though it later excluded the Nandor, except those who were the direct subjects of Elwë, or had become merged with his people. The name meant 'the Grey', or 'the Grey-elves', and was derived from *THIN, {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] *thindi 'grey, pale or silvery grey', {Q}[Quenya] þinde, Ñ dialect sinde. [footnote: On the origin of this name see {Note 11}<reference to the footnote above>]
The Loremasters also supposed … For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind 'flame-eyed'.>
CE-EX-76.15 <Q&E The old clan-name *Lindai survived in the compound Glinnel, pl. Glinnil, a word only known in historical lore, and the equivalent of Quenya Teleri or Lindar CE-EX-76.2{; see the Notes on the Clan-names below}. All the Sindarin subjects of King Elu-Thingol, as distinguished from the incoming Noldor, were sometimes later called the Eluwaith. Dunedhil 'West-elves' (the reference being to the West of Middle-earth) was a term made to match Dunedain 'West-men' (applied only to the Men of the Three Houses). But with the growing amalgamation, outside Doriath, of the Noldor and Sindar into one people using the Sindarin tongue as their daily speech, this soon became applied to both Noldor and Sindar.
While the Noldor were still distinct, and whenever it was desired to recall their difference of origin, they were usually called Odhil (sg. Odhel). This as has been seen was originally a name for all the Elves that left Beleriand for Aman. These were also called by the Sindar Gwanwen, pl. Gwenwin (or Gwanwel, Gwenwil) 'the departed': cf. {Q}[Quenya] vanwa. This term, which could not suitably be applied to those who had come back, remained the usual Sindarin name for the Elves that remained in Aman.
Odhil thus became specially the name of the Exiled Noldor.
In this sense the form Godhel, pl. Godhil soon replaced the older form. It seems to have been due to the influence of the clan-name Golodh, pl. Goelydh; or rather to a deliberate blending of the two words. The old clan-name had not fallen out of memory (for the Noldor and the Sindar owing to the great friendship of Finwë and Elwë were closely associated during their sojourn in Beleriand before the Departure) and it had in consequence a genuine Sindarin form (< CE *ngolodo). But the form Golodh seems to have been phonetically unpleasing to the Noldor. The name was, moreover, chiefly used by those who wished to mark the difference between the Noldor and the Sindar, and to ignore the dwelling of the Noldor in Aman which might give them a claim to superiority. CE-EX-76.3{This was especially the case in Doriath, where King Thingol was hostile to the Noldorin chieftains, Feanor and his sons, and Fingolfin, because of their assault upon the Teleri in Aman, the people of his brother Olwë. }The Noldor, therefore, when using Sindarin, never applied this name (Golodh) to themselves, and it fell out of use among those friendly to them. CE-EX-76.4 {4. }
Eglan, pl. Eglain, Egladrim
This name, 'the Forsaken', was, as has been said, given by the Sindar to themselves. But it was not in Beleriand a name for all the Elves who remained there, as were the related names, Hekeldi, Hecelloi, in Aman. It applied only to those who wished to depart, and waited long in vain for the return of Ulmo, taking up their abode on or near the coasts. There they became skilled in the building and management of ships. Círdan was their lord.
Círdan’s folk were mad up both of numbers of the following of Olwë, who straying or lingering came to the shores too late, and also of many of the following of Elwë, who abandoned the search for him and did not wish to be separated forever from their kin and friends. This folk remained in the desire of Aman for long years, and they were among the most friendly to the Exiles.
They continued to call themselves the Eglain, and the regions where they dwelt Eglamar and Eglador. The later name fell out of general use. It had originally been applied to all western Beleriand between Mount Taras and the Bay of Balar, its eastern boundary being roughly along the River Narog. Eglamar, however, remained the name of the ‘Home of the Eglain’: the sea-board from Cape Andras to the headland of Bar-in-Mŷl (‘Home of the Gulls’), which included the ship-havens of Círdan at Brithombar and at the head of the firth of Eglarest.
The Eglain became a people somewhat apart from the inland Elves, and at the time of the coming of the Exiles their language was in many ways different.[footnote: The language of Mithrim was also a marked dialect; but none of the dialects of Sindarin differed widely enough to interfere with intercourse. Their divergences were no greater than those that had arisen between the Quenya as spoken by the Vanyar, and as spoken by the Noldor at the time of the Exile.] But they acknowledged the high-kingship of Thingol, and Círdan never took the title of king.>[Footnote: Other names in song and tale are given to these peoples. The Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear-elves, the Elves of the Air, the friends of the {Gods}[Valar], the Holy Elves and the Immortal, and the Children of Ingwë; they are the Fair Folk and the White.
The Noldor are the Wise, and the Golden, the Valiant, the Sword-elves, the Elves of the Earth, the Foes of Melkor, the Skilled of Hand, the Jewel-wrights, the Companions of Men, the Followers of Finwë.
The Teleri are the Foam-riders, the Singers of the Shore, the Free, and the Swift, and the Arrow-elves; they are the Elves of the Sea, the Ship-wrights, the Swanherds, the Gatherers of Pearl, the Blue Elves, the people of Olwë. The Nandor are CE-EX-77{the Host of Dân, }the Wood-elves, the Wanderers, the Axe-elves, the Green Elves and the Brown, the Hidden People; and those that came at last to Ossiriand are the Elves of the Seven Rivers, the Singers Unseen, the Kingless, the Weaponless, and the Lost Folk, for they are now no more. The Sindar are the Lemberi, the Lingerers; they are the Friends of Ossë, the Elves of the Twilight, the Silvern, the Enchanters, the Wards of Melian, the Kindred of Luthien, the people of Elwë. Quoth Pengolod.]>
Changes in the arangement introduced by me: CE-EX-68: This completely skipped passage was displaced in the curse of our editing the text back ward and forward. I reinstalled it at its proper place, so for the final text this has no impact, it is just for the documentation of how our text is constructed.

CE-EX-76.1 to CE-EX-76.2: In this part ArcusCalion wanted to replace the footnote about the Mithrim alone. But for me, shifting the footnote from one reference to another doesn’t seem to be the right way. Therefore I shifted the arrangement the inserted paragraphs.

Last but not least to the comments that ArcusCalion provided with the draft:
CE-EX-58.4: ArcusCalion suggested to remove this footnote completely, and I agree to this.

CE-EX-62.5 Footnote to §26: ArcusCalion suggested hesitatingly to remove this footnote completely. I thought first we should keep this one reference to the Gnomes, since the name might be used in later writings. But it is neither in the Hobbit nor in LotR. So I agree to remove the complete footnote.

CE-SL-21: ArcusCalion asked why this was deleted. The passage gives a relation between the Valinorean years and the Years of the Sun. The project discussed about this and came to the conclusion that we will not tackle this problem down. This means we simply avoid specifying such a relation. May be I have overdone it here by the complete deletion. We could take:
§60 And it came to pass that after CE-SL-21{ten}[long] Years of journeying in this manner {(which is to say in such a time as we now should reckon well nigh a century of our years) }the Eldar passed through a forest, ...
CE-EX-70: ArcusCalion worte:
Why not replace the name?
In my arrangement the names in the different tongues followed immediately after this passage. Therefore I removed it simply. In this ordering a replacement is better.

CE-EX-60.6: ArcusCalion wanted to remove this Footnote. But I think that is unnecessary. Once we are talking about real footnotes this just a repeated number, so that he footnote has two references.
In Quenya form the names of the three great Clans were Vanyar, Ñoldor , and Lindar.
To ‘Ñoldor’ in this sentence ArcusCalion wrote:
Noldor, to be consistent
Okay, in general Noldor it should be. But in all these linguistic stuff the tilde might be use in same cases.
ArcusCalion suggested to expand ‘PQ’ as ‘Primitive Quendian’. I agree to this and think we as well should expand ‘Q’ to ‘Quenya’ and ‘S’ to ‘Sindarin’. I have added this to the general changes.

ArcusCalion wanted to remove the following footnote as ‘too complex’:
[footnote: For the late {PQ}[Primitive Quendian] gl- as an initial variation of l- see General Phonology. Though this Clan-name has *glind- in Sindarin, the g- does not appear in Amanya Telerin, nor in Nandorin, so that in this case it may be an addition in Sindarin, which favoured and much increased initial groups of this kind.]
I don’t agree to this. It is in a footnote already. Readers not interested in such things will easily go over it.

According to the legend, preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar, ...
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
as has been told
I don’t know if that was meant as an proposed addition to the text or as an argument for removal. Either way I am inclined to let the text be as it is. Yes we have told that legend just a few pages above, but that makes the back reference not useless or wrong.

... The first Avari that the Eldar met again in Beleriand seem to have claimed to be Tatyar, who acknowledged their kinship with the Exiles, though there is no record of their using the name Noldo in any recognizable Avarin form. They were actually unfriendly to the Noldor, and jealous of their more exalted kin, whom they accused of arrogance. ...
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
breaks the linear story telling
That is true, but it is true for many points in this linguistic stuff. Nonetehless they transport many important points which I would not loss. And we have in Sil77 as well such examples. So I would not change the text for this.

Vanyar thus comes from an adjectival derivative *wanja from the stem *WAN. Its primary sense seems to have beenkn very similar to English (modern) use of 'fair’ with reference to hair and complexion; though its actual development was the reverse of the English: it meant 'pale, light-colored, not brown or dark', and its implication of beauty was secondary. In English the meaning ‘beautiful’ is primary. From the same stem was derived the name given in Quenya to the Valië Vána wife of Oromë.
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
But I don’t see why, so please explain.

… is already referred to in the legend of 'The Awakening of the Quendi’, which says of the Nelyar that 'they sang before they could speak with words.’ …
To this phrase ArcusCalion commented:
Already gave the tale
I don’t know if that was meant as an proposed addition to the text or as an argument for removal. Either way I am inclined to let the text be as it is. Yes we have told that legend just a few pages above, but that makes the back reference not useless or wrong.

The last comment of ArcusCalion was about the shift of the footnote, on which I have already reacted above.

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