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davem · 03-26-2004, 02:03 PM

Orcs descended from Elves would necesarally be limited by an 'Elvish' mindset, in that they would not be able to 'think outside the box' of the Music. This would be an innate thing. All but Men seem driven to attempt to bring the Music into being. There are cotending themes within the Music - introduced by Melkor, so as Orcs they would seek to actualise his themes, but could not think outside that framework. They may have some ability to use different methods to bring those themes into being, but not to come up with original themes themselves. To what extent would this constitute 'free will' as we would understand it?

Men can 'think outside the box' & bring about changes not in the Music - as long as Eru permits the change. This would make Orcs 'descended' from Men a double edged sword for Morgoth & Sauron - neither of whom have that freedom of thought or action.
The very fact that the Valar have to lay down their rule of Arda in face of the Numenoreans - who are instigating a change not foreseen in the Music - & need Eru to deal with them, changing the face of the world - implies that the Valar cannot step outside the Doom of Arda. This is possibly a reason why both they & the Elves increasingly withdraw from the World as men come to dominate. Things would become increasingly unpredictable.

So, Valar, Maiar & Elves have the freedom to choose which of the contending themes they will attempt to actualise, but not to introduce new themes. They can be judged as to their choice of pre-existing options, implying a degree of freedom, but they cannot choose anything else. The difficulty for them is the unpredictability which Men introduce by their true freedom, because Valar, Maiar & Elves cannot know what changes will occur. Hence, by the end of the Third Age, Elves (& probably Valar) are reduced to 'fighting the Long Defeat' attempting to hold onto their original, innate, vision of what the Music predicted, while the world around them is pushed by Men further & further away from what they feel it ''should' be like. In a case like this, it is understandable that the Elves would resort to the use of the Rings (its even understandable that Sauron should seek total control of the world) as with them, at least in their isolated realms, they could hold out against the changes, & keep at least their own realms in accord with the Music . Which in the end, as we see, will not work, & can only be achieved to the extent it is, by the use of the 'unnatura'l force of magic.

03-26-2004, 02:03 PM	#70
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Orcs descended from Elves would necesarally be limited by an 'Elvish' mindset, in that they would not be able to 'think outside the box' of the Music. This would be an innate thing. All but Men seem driven to attempt to bring the Music into being. There are cotending themes within the Music - introduced by Melkor, so as Orcs they would seek to actualise his themes, but could not think outside that framework. They may have some ability to use different methods to bring those themes into being, but not to come up with original themes themselves. To what extent would this constitute 'free will' as we would understand it? Men can 'think outside the box' & bring about changes not in the Music - as long as Eru permits the change. This would make Orcs 'descended' from Men a double edged sword for Morgoth & Sauron - neither of whom have that freedom of thought or action. The very fact that the Valar have to lay down their rule of Arda in face of the Numenoreans - who are instigating a change not foreseen in the Music - & need Eru to deal with them, changing the face of the world - implies that the Valar cannot step outside the Doom of Arda. This is possibly a reason why both they & the Elves increasingly withdraw from the World as men come to dominate. Things would become increasingly unpredictable. So, Valar, Maiar & Elves have the freedom to choose which of the contending themes they will attempt to actualise, but not to introduce new themes. They can be judged as to their choice of pre-existing options, implying a degree of freedom, but they cannot choose anything else. The difficulty for them is the unpredictability which Men introduce by their true freedom, because Valar, Maiar & Elves cannot know what changes will occur. Hence, by the end of the Third Age, Elves (& probably Valar) are reduced to 'fighting the Long Defeat' attempting to hold onto their original, innate, vision of what the Music predicted, while the world around them is pushed by Men further & further away from what they feel it ''should' be like. In a case like this, it is understandable that the Elves would resort to the use of the Rings (its even understandable that Sauron should seek total control of the world) as with them, at least in their isolated realms, they could hold out against the changes, & keep at least their own realms in accord with the Music . Which in the end, as we see, will not work, & can only be achieved to the extent it is, by the use of the 'unnatura'l force of magic. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."