Thread: Evil things
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Old 03-29-2004, 12:10 AM   #73
HerenIstarion
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Quote:
Men are not bound by the Music, which is as fate to all things else
Fairly so. But what I was trying to bring your attention to is omniscience and omnipotence of Eru, so, as the Music was sung before time (cf. Silmarillions 'in Eru's halls before time'), all possible future changes in it subsequent to freedom of Men are already sung (in a way, from the point of view of a person inside time, and, at the same (I wanted to say time, but than, what with observer being outside time, the word looses a lot of its meaning, so at the same whatever it is) it may be still going on for the observer outside time. Valar are not omniscient, and they haven't seen all of it, that's all. But, as it is seen from the quote you give, nobody can change Music despite Eru, so, logically chaining it all, it may be concluded that:

When Music is changed by means of a man, it is Eru who changes it, using the person as a tool

Why the statement (and being Eru's tool) does not eliminate Man's freedom [of choice] I've tried to illustrate in my previous

Gandalf is Eru's tool, for he is urged to take Bilbo along on the adventure, and Bilbo is tool, for he miraculously finds the ring, but they have choice nevertheless. Gandalf could have gone drinking beer in Bree instead of having pains of ushering grocer-like Bilbo on to form a coven with dwarves, and persuading Thorin to take hobbit along

Besides, (for even for 'bound-by-fate' elves there always is freedom of choice) the main expression (so to say, medium) of Man's freedom is his death, when he is entitled to leave boundaries of Arda

Magic re:

Quote:
Magic could be said to be natural on one level - it does exist in M.E., but that does not mean that all use of it is good or acceptable.
Exactly. You mistake my underlying implications, it seems. When I was stating the magic of M.E. to be natural, I did not mean by that that therefore it has to be good. Natural does no equal acceptable for me, it equals 'what is contained in Nature'. The following reasoning is applicable:

When Eru said Ea, he created nature (i.e. place of space and time, i.e. Arda). Anything what happens inside created nature once it starts to tick away, and is not brought into it from outside, is natural. Hence, Valar, which are part of the Nature (Powers of the World) from the beginning of it, are not to be viewed as powers from outside the Nature, therefore whatever magic/power they use, is not supernatural. Equally, Elves, using their innate abilities, even when they create artefacts like rings of power, impose upon artefacts of the kind what is natural to them, therefore their magic is not supernatural as well (hence the Galadriel's statements about 'arts')
Do you consider using of a bow to be expression of supernatural power? Truly, bits of wood and string are not 'natural' parts of human body, as it is. Extend a principle a bit more, and you get the rings of power (or nuclear bomb, or whatever)

The ends to which natural means are used, is therefore entirely different subject. (as good sight and sure hand maybe used to kill dragons in one case and to shoot Isildur in another, but good sight and sure hand are beyond good/evaluation in themselves, being part of natural abilities, kind of 'what is given')

Now what is supernatural, comes usually directly from Eru and is woven into nature already operating, and should be qualified as miracle - i.e., determined intervention into the flow of natural events from outside the nature with the intention to alter them. So, Numenor's sinking is supernatural event, likewise [it is hinted that] finding of the ring by Bilbo, whilst all the application of magic is natural

I may go on into arguing that even 'miracles' (i.e. interventions from outside, un/supernatural), in a way are natural too, for they come:

A) From the same source as nature comes from
B) Are embodied into events inherent to Nature (so, Numenor is not toppled over by corporeal Eru with an enormous spade, but is swept over with a tide. And tide is natural event)

But that is another subject

Up to a forth age, even 'black' magic is natural, for Sauron is equally part of Nature, though Morgoth be cast outside. And even afterwards, as all the matter in Arda is tainted and contains part of Morgoth, those to draw their power from that kind of source, are in a twisted way, using 'natural' (in a sense, parts of nature) abilities.

In Arda Remade, therefore, there will be no place for 'black' magic, for its sources there will be no more, but still more ground for 'good' magic, with the exploitation of Children's 'innate abilities

It seems to me that all the talk of unnatural is caused by our modern disposition towards Magic (as something opposed to science), but for M.E the terms are interchangable. Elves and Maiar are around for sufficiently long time to have enough of it and learn to use their innate, natural abilities to the extent is seems unnatural to Men
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Last edited by HerenIstarion; 03-29-2004 at 12:18 AM. Reason: spelling, as usual :(
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